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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 2:46PM
#191
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2008
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@Valdark : No problem you doesn't offend me a bit and I hope it is the same for my contribution towards you or anyone. I don't mean to be rude.
I think that the debate has slip to whereas the feat in the slayer theme, which is not written in a 4e RAW way but more in the new D&D next kiss RAI way, is balanced or not.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the spirit of this new edition is that if there is something that would mind the DM, he has the power to simply rule it out or modify it on the fly.
If some people don't like this feat, or think it is not well written and can lead to some confusion, just houserule it - hell if you think up about if using a dead kobold and threw it at more than 100 feets away does damage on a miss or not, imho you are way out of the spirit (but then you have nonetheless the right and the duty to tell your feelings).
Why would a handfull of players with another view dictate to suppress from the game a such minor rule that other players enjoy when they can just ban it from their own games? I just don't get it.
Moreover, it is weird to think that not once in this thread was the mention about wizards doing half damage on a miss as an equal blasphemy... nor that they have an autohit damage at-will that scale in number of targets with level. Ok, just the combattants, solely the arms users, has to be uncool, I think I'm starting to get it.
But, as I'm also an heavy compromiser and as I'm willing to see past my only standart, I recognize that every kind of damage on a miss mechanic need an overlaying rule of thumb in order to prevent abuses. I think too that the no DoM on a disadvantage is a fine one.
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 2:55PM
#192
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2007
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HeRaw,
It's more the precedence that it and the wizards at will magic Missle set.
The wizard 1/2 on a "miss" is dealing with elemental forces and it is a per day limit rather than an every round it happens regardless.
I'm all for good fighter mechanics. I just don't agree that this is one. I know your reasoning and I don't think this power is the answer to your concerns. Check "why fight the fighter" for some really go discussion on how to fix the fighter class rather than defending this one mechanic because it is all fighters have at present.
Thank you for your spirit of compromise. I look forward to seeing your ideas on how to make the fighter better, gods know he needs it.
Brave Knights of W.T.F. Gryphon Helm Winner.
Edition wars kill players, this will kill Dungeons and Dragons.
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 2:59PM
#193
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2008
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Sorry to come again, but you miss something still.
This is not a fighter mechanic.
It is related to fighting, that is true. But anyone could take the slayer feat, even a wizard.
As I see it, it's just a cool feat that enable someone to make a character that will always deal some damages when fighting, even where the odds are against him.
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 3:05PM
#194
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I actually loved the drunk fighting example - it makes me want to play a slayer who ocassionally closes his eyes just to psyche out the opponents. It perfectly captures the mad martigan feel - he so outclassed the mooks, he didn't need to be sober.
Can someone tell me why the ranged part of it bothers them? I get that improvised weapons as kobolds is a broken rule, DoM or not. But, given that, why is a slayer who never misses with an axe different than a slayer who never misses with a bow? Or is it specifically that people shouldn't be as good with improvised weapons? If the concern is the validity of firing into combat, and knowing you won't hit an ally, I guess I get it. Never really liked the friendly fire rule, I get that it happens in real combat, but I like my games a bit more fantasy book, where legolas doesn't accidentally shoot Gimli. But, for those who like that rule, would allowing for the risk of both hitting an ally and doing auto damage ruin your sense of immersion? I'd envision It as a accidental trick shot - glancing off an enemy to bury itself into an ally. They are, after all, in close quarters by definition. Other than ranged limitation ( which puzzles me ), i think the disadvantage rule is perhaps a bit much. I can see the argument that it shouldn't work with too many disadvantages, but a single disadvantage, like drunk? That seems fine - plenty of boxers are dangerous still when disoriented due to head injury, so seems reasonable they'd be dangerous when drunk. But, if we're having civil arguements over balance (too strong for level 1, too string without exemption for disadvantages), we can avoid some of the less valuable conversation threads ("just ban it" or "just don't use it in your game", both of which are non-value-add)
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 3:05PM
#195
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2007
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Because we are talking about the build and if you read this you would see that I did post concerns on magic missile multiple times.
You specified the arms fighter not me. I was simPlu responding. If you want my thoughts on wizards read my posts on threads dealing with their build.
Brave Knights of W.T.F. Gryphon Helm Winner.
Edition wars kill players, this will kill Dungeons and Dragons.
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 3:12PM
#196
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2007
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That is why I am using this thread to try and foster compromise. The title draws in both sides strongest supporters.
If we can compromise then anyone can.
The ranged weapon has the drawback of not being multiple swings to achieve the attack. Trick shots are something that should be an option for ranged but why then is that ability given to the melee brute?
They should be separate mechanics to show specialized training.
I don't at all see the reason to build in high skill level mechanics on low level builds.
Brave Knights of W.T.F. Gryphon Helm Winner.
Edition wars kill players, this will kill Dungeons and Dragons.
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 3:22PM
#197
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We had our first play thest today. And I honest to god have to say when we were figing minions our fighter didnt even try to trow the dice.. I mean just the hit on a miss damage was enough. I think its cool but maybe should have a tread range.. So for acample if your close to the AC (lest day 1st lvl you have a range of +2) so when I hit trow a 13 when I need to hit AC 15. Then I get the miss dmg bc I was so close but when I hit a 9 its 0 becouse he could parry it correctly. ---------------------
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 3:28PM
#198
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Does ranged weapon that "hits" actually connect? If so does a warrior with 200 HP become a living pin cushion when attacked by archers? If so, then I would say you have bigger realism issues on your hand than 3 damage on a miss. If not, then HP is abstract enough for you that 3 damage on a miss should be fine.
Note: I do not like the slayer theme DoM. I think it is boring and lacks creativity. I also do not like the idea of a missed attack dropping an enemy. I would have preferred that they gave the slayer some cool abilities instead of MOAR DAMAGE!!! I do not have a problem with DoM existing from a realism standpoint though.
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 3:55PM
#199
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2007
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LaWolf,
I understand that HP are an abstract concept. That being said wit HP as an abstract concept to define what gets through your armor but doesn't hit flesh per say, do we need further abstraction on what actually drains those resources with melee or ranged weapons. Isn't armor class supposed to define what it takes to get through to a point to wear you down? Why then ignore this rule and place another rule even more abstract upon it? I'm sorry but this argument doesn't address the issue of the specific mechanic that bypasses all probability to consistently weaken and in the case of low level enemies (which is being argued that this is it's only time where it is actually useful) kill them outright with no rolls? You actually turn the players roll in the combat of kobolds to "I move here".
Which in no way helps gameplay.
And see we agree that the mechanic isn't really worth it to begin with.
I'd rather not start a system with it as written. Again proposals to have disads negate and nat ones negate are vast improvements mechanically but still don't address gameplay value.
Brave Knights of W.T.F. Gryphon Helm Winner.
Edition wars kill players, this will kill Dungeons and Dragons.
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1 year ago ::
Jun 03, 2012 - 5:01PM
#200
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Date Joined:
May 25, 2012
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Just a side note. I'm still following the thread but am keeping my gob shut so no one else becomes offended with the knights of W.T.F. I promised to not respond toward this subject again and I will keep that promise. I just wanted to say I like the way that all the current posters are working together toward a comprimise. "We are the knights of W.T.F. and we want a better game." keep going Lads and Lasses!
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