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1 year ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 7:57PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2004
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Disarm, Grapple, Trip, Bull Rush. These things need rules. They can be simple, that's ok. But asking every DM to house rule their own version of these is just asking for trouble. I'm actually surprised that they didn't include these in their test of the core rules, but maybe they're testing what happens when they don't include them (they said as much when they talked about removing rules).
What's funny is that grappling is mentioned several times in the rules... just things that make it easier to escape, rather than how you actually escape.
I don't like having to house rule such basic actions... it just means someone's going to be unhappy with the rule, and then it's the rule-maker's fault. I know that's part and parcel with being a DM, but seriously, no grapple or disarm rules? Those are bread and butter D&D.
Maybe they're not defining rules so people don't feel so restricted... if there's no rules, you can do anything, right? if there's rules for grapple and disarm, but not trip, then you obviously can't trip, right? I'm not sure I buy it, but I could at least understand that thought process.
I do remember 2nd edition being a lot more open ended about stuff people would try. With 3e and 4e, pretty much no one ever tries anything not defined by a feat or power.
This actually reminds me of a quote from an actual player (granted, a fairly new one) during a 3.5 game:
"Running.... is that a feat, or can I just do that?"
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1 year ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 8:04PM
#2
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I disagree. I don't care at all for specific disarm and grapple rules. They are always terrible. I always house rule them. They were never needed in the first place.
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1 year ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 9:44PM
#3
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They should at least provide rules for basic actions like tripping, charging, bullrushing, etc. Every DM is going to come with houserules for this stuff anyways, and I'm sure most of them will suck.
WotC, why should I pay for your ruleset if you expect me to come up with all the rules myself? I don't need rules for basketweaving or fishing and all that crap. I just want good functional combat and exploration rules. Is that too much to ask?
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1 year ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 9:58PM
#4
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I've removed content from this thread because Edition Warring is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here. Please read over this post: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...Thank you, ORC_Chaos
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1 year ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 10:53PM
#5
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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I would like to see a rules module that includes special combat maneuvers in the final rulebook/PHB/DMG. Houseruling is fine but I can do that on my own with the current version of D&D that I'm playing. There are a lot of good ideas out there already for handling these... hoping that there are not a ton of Feats that deal with this type of Combat.... maybe make one that grant an Advantage on doing these types of moves, Call it "Versatile Myrmidon" or something flavorful... might go along with the "old school" flavor of this new iteration.
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1 year ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 11:04PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2005
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Do you really need rules for that.
Tripping Str V Dex
Disarm STR V STR
Bull Rush STR V STR
Grapple STR V DEX to initiate, grappled opponents DEX or STR, and training (escape artist) v Grappeler STR to break.
Why must you be told how to do something, do what makes sense in the world based on the core of the game.
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1 year ago ::
May 31, 2012 - 12:09AM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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Don't assume; I never said "I" needed rules for that... I said I would like to see them in a module in the final version of the rules. I have played all versions of D&D since 1983, DMed all but 4E: I don't need to be told how to do something in the game, any version. The main reason I would like to see this in the final rules is that not everyone who will be playing the new D&D game will be a veteran player/DM and they might also be young, as in like 9 or 10 years old. Abstract thinking at that age doesn't come as easily, at least from the kids I know...
Also, you didn't mention Sundering an item or Weapon. And I would think a Disarm attempt would be STR vs DEX, just my 2CP.
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1 year ago ::
May 31, 2012 - 12:27AM
#8
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Do you really need rules for that.
Tripping Str V Dex
Disarm STR V STR
Bull Rush STR V STR
Grapple STR V DEX to initiate, grappled opponents DEX or STR, and training (escape artist) v Grappeler STR to break.
Why must you be told how to do something, do what makes sense in the world based on the core of the game.
Because the rules matter for a number of different things: how viable the manuever is, how balanced it is, what kinds of mechanical effects it produces, etc. To take an example, Bull Rush - how many squares can I push an opponent with a successful Bull Rush? Given the current lack of AOO, Bull Rush might not be viable if you can only push the subject back by 5-10 feet or 1-2 squares. Does Bull Rush give me disadvantage or give advantage to my opponent? To take another, Sunder. How difficult is it to break an enemy's weapon or armor? If it's really easy, then you run the risk of the Fighter turning an elite boss with artefact armor who you're supposed to wear down into a cakewalk. If it's too hard, players aren't going to use the option.
Freeform has its merits, but there's a reason that roleplaying advanced beyond cops vs. robbers. At a certain point, there needs to be a way to resolve whether I totally shot you or whether you totally had a forcefield up.
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1 year ago ::
May 31, 2012 - 1:49AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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I don't want sunder to ever see the light of day again. While technically a sound maneuver, there isn't any real reason for a monster to NOT sunder a PCs armor/weapon, and that can get lame real fast. Breaking down doors and destroying objects don't need complicated rules. If you have a proper tool (axe to chop through a wooden door, hammer to smash an object, etc), assume it takes X amount of time, DM discretion. An improvised tool would adjust the time it would take.
I agree there needs to be a core set of maneuvers, such as trip (prone), disarm (disadvantaged next turn), and grab (both you and target are immobilized until your next turn). Positioning maneuvers aren't terribly useful if you aren't using a grid or similar. What does a bull rush do in a gridless system?
Magic Dual Color Test
Show
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1 year ago ::
May 31, 2012 - 1:59AM
#10
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2012
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I don't want sunder to ever see the light of day again. While technically a sound maneuver, there isn't any real reason for a monster to NOT sunder a PCs armor/weapon, and that can get lame real fast.
What if you had specific things that could only be done on a critical hit like sunder?
I agree there needs to be a core set of maneuvers, such as trip (prone), disarm (disadvantaged next turn), and grab (both you and target are immobilized until your next turn). Positioning maneuvers aren't terribly useful if you aren't using a grid or similar. What does a bull rush do in a gridless system?
I wouldn't mind a list of maneuvers and their effect. Just keep them simple.
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