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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 9:22PM
#11
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It's going to be interesting to see how far the design team take themes. If the playtest rules are any indication then it looks like they will keep them fairly simple with only an additional feat adding to the flavor of the character.
I'm hoping that they will evolve further or otherwise I'm not sure how you would create a cavalier or an illusionist or a swashbuckling pirate subclass from themes and backgrounds alone. We'll have to wait and see, perhaps they'll just add a bunch of subclasses to the DDI material.
You seem to misunderstand how themes work.
Instead of picking feats as you level up, you pick a theme at first level, and as you level up your theme grants you your feats.
Ditto.
I wouldn't mind seeing each of the styles mentioned by the OP (and any additional styles not specifically mentioned) each be their own theme; with associated feats that represent the different types of attacks and special abilities granted by those styles.
For example, the Ninja theme would start with a base feat (Ninjitsu?), which would represent the basic attack(s) that a student would know; then successive feats would add better, more powerful/specialized attacks and, eventually, even the supernatural features that are commonly attributed to ninjas). Although this would result in certain feats that have prerequisites, and that may be something they are trying to avoid.
But how would one feat at 1st level make you a credible ninja character? What I"m saying is I think you need more elements in order create the subclass. Maybe themes are not appropriate for subclasses like the ninja or swashbuckler.
It might if it granted you a suite of abilities, like they feats they mentioned (in the live chat) being in the works for the fighter.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 10:01PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2008
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I imagine a ninja character might require multiple parts to make him work right.
For example, we know that rogues get schemes, like thief, right? Well, let's start off with a ninja scheme for the rogue. Mix that with a ninja background for the appropriate skills and add in a ninja theme, and bam! Ninja!
That said, I'm sure some subclasses might be simple enough to do with nothing more than a theme.
D&D Experience Level: Relatively new
First Edition: 4th
Known Editions: 4th, 3.5
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Magic Experience Level: Fairly skilled
First Expansion: 7th Edition
Play Style: Very Casual
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 10:44PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2009
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I missed the rogue scheme thief, thanks for pointing that out. Schemes must form the basis for subclasses. I wonder what differentiates a scheme from a class other than schemes are class specific (i.e only Rogues can be thieves, but they can also be other schemes.) If so that makes a lot of sense, and now I can see why themes would be non class specific.
So we might imagine a player who has a wizard characters that decides they want to be thief like or has picked up the lifestyle of a thief through adventuring. They can't choose the Rogue's thief scheme (short of multiclassing) but they could take a thief like theme that would give them a feat or skill within the sphere of the thief scheme. Maybe, maybe not. Themes might be limited only to feats and feats don't include the skills of the thief scheme.
The cover of the 1st edition Player’s Handbook by artist D.A. Trampier. A motley crew of adventurers, the bloodied bodies of lizard men, the hint of arcane malevolence surrounding the idol, the daring thieves prying the jewels from the statue. This is arguably the most iconic piece of art in all of RPGdom.
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 10:48PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Dec 25, 2009
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Skills come from backgrounds.
So if you want to play a wizard who knows how to be stealthy and steal stuff, you'd play a wizard with, say, the Cutpurse background (which might give you Stealth, Pick Pocket, Open Locks, and Perception as its skills).
If you think that this wizard also knows how to stab people in the back with a dagger, you'd pick up the Lurker (or other appropriate) theme.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 10:58PM
#15
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I was thinking of this.
Basically, way monks have been done before (well, not sure about 4e) is just wrong.
- most of the shaolin monk's amazing abilities come from crazy training and thus comparable fitness
- you can pick up credible martial arts techniques in few months, but how well you can apply those, varies.
So, a background in monastic training could give something like, CON bonus to DEX bonus when figuring out AC (so you'd still get +0 with heavy armor, and you could cap it at +5 or something) or WIS to CON checks.
Martial Arts Theme could add unarmed combat (never being unarmed is more valuable, as I think people would have advantage vs. unarmed opponents) and various techniques with levels on top of that.
You could get the 'traditional' D&D monk with a cleric using monastic background and martial artist theme.
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13 months ago ::
May 31, 2012 - 1:39AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2009
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For example, the Ninja theme would start with a base feat (Ninjitsu?), which would represent the basic attack(s) that a student would know; then successive feats would add better, more powerful/specialized attacks and, eventually, even the supernatural features that are commonly attributed to ninjas). Although this would result in certain feats that have prerequisites, and that may be something they are trying to avoid.
But how would one feat at 1st level make you a credible ninja character? What I"m saying is I think you need more elements in order create the subclass. Maybe themes are not appropriate for subclasses like the ninja or swashbuckler.
It might if it granted you a suite of abilities, like they feats they mentioned (in the live chat) being in the works for the fighter.
This is what I'm suggesting.
I imagine a ninja character might require multiple parts to make him work right.
For example, we know that rogues get schemes, like thief, right? Well, let's start off with a ninja scheme for the rogue. Mix that with a ninja background for the appropriate skills and add in a ninja theme, and bam! Ninja!
That said, I'm sure some subclasses might be simple enough to do with nothing more than a theme.
This is another way of getting there; or, maybe both combined.
Perhaps a Martial-Artist Scheme, open to any class, to give the basics of a style; then Themes or Theme Suites that fill out the style's other features (such as the more unique abilities associated with the style).
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13 months ago ::
May 31, 2012 - 2:12AM
#17
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I think Rogue Schemes are going to be where Ninja-type stuff fits in. And with the current popularity of Assassin's Creed, I think it's likely that (either combined with the basic Ninja scheme or separately) we're going to see an Assassin Rogue Scheme.
As for martial arts, as I indicated on the 'Ranger as theme' thread, I think one or more martial-arts focussed themes are both likely and desirable.
Belonging to a ninja clan might be the product of a background, though - perhaps a generic 'clan member' background for mafiosi, ninja, highlanders, whoever, which the DM can add appropriate fluff to for each clan or clan-based society in the game world?
Z.
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