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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 7:23AM
#1
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Since the playtest packet didn't include any character creation options, or even a good explanation of the attack bonuses listed, my response is going to focus on the actual gameplay. We just played with 1st level characters, so advancing might address some of the issues discussed below. When I looked at the advancements to level three, however, it seemed like most of these issues would still exist. 1: The out-of-combat healing is insufficient:
After each extended encounter the front line was down over half their health. A lot of time was spent convincing party members with half their health to continue the days adventures. Part of this was being used to 4th edition's healing surges which allow for going into the next encounter better prepared. The other part was the knowledge that one or two hits in the next fight would drop an already wounded character. 2: Randomly rolled out-of-combat healing stinks:
In the same vein as point 1, the fighter can vary from restoring 3/20 to 15/20 outside of combat. That is one hell of a range, and it's really unlikely that everyone who is wounded will heal back to a sufficient amount that they're willing to continue exploring. The 1/4 hit points of the healing surge is a good pre-defined solution, though I like including the constitution modifier. Maybe a surge would be 1/4 + conmod or 1/5 + conmod. Either way a fixed amount is good. 3 : Not enough In Combat Healing Options:
We're back to the cleric will spend most of their spell slots healing the party, and the healing doesn't scale with level and is not sufficient to compare to the damage the monsters are dishing out. At first level, the cleric didn't really explore the other spell options and went for two castings of cure-light-wounds. At 1d8+4 hit / casting, the cleric felt that her healing was weak. On a personal opinion note: I've always been annoyed how healing lost efficacy as the characters level. A spell that at first level would restore potentially half the health of a fighter, would only heal the barest of scratches at high level. I really appreciated healing word in 4th edition restoring 1/4 + 1d6 hp of health. 4 : The Advantage / Disadvantage system is simple and fast:
We really enjoyed the advantage / disadvantage system. It's quickly apparent that disadvantage really means it. The ranged characters did their best to avoid being adjacent to the monsters, even without opportunity attacks. We really liked that assisting granted advantage. It finally felt like assisting was worth the effort. The static +2 from 4th edition rarely makes the effort worth while. It flowed well, and didn't require much in the way of explaining. 5 : The pacing was very good:
This might have been a factor of the module and how things were laid out, but combats were quick. I think the biggest reduction was the removal of the plethora of interrupting actions. 6 : Good Riddance to Attacks of Opportunity:
The party can run away! Monsters can flee! Maneuvering around the opponents no longer feels like you're dragging your feet. The opportunity attack slowed down combat, and really made fights feel like they had to be fights to the death. 7 : Moved by movement:
We all really liked the new, simplified movement rules. The ability to split your move before and after the attack was lauded by the ranged characters. Being knocked prone is no longer one of the worst affects that can happen to you. No longer can you knock an enemy prone and shift away, preventing the enemy from hitting you the next turn. 8 : The party endurance was very bad:
With the healing points mentioned earlier, the adventuring "day" was 15 mins long, in game. Even if you exaggerated travel times, and time spent searching the bodies etc. it would at best be a single hour. It very much felt like the heroes only got to scratch the surface of the dungeons when they were obligated to retreat for the day.
We really enjoyed the chance to test the next edition, and are looking forward to test again. Thanks for providing the opportunity to provide feedback
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 7:29AM
#2
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Date Joined:
May 20, 2005
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You should post this in one of the actual feedback forums, not in "general discussion." It's a good feedback post.
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 7:48AM
#3
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You should post this in one of the actual feedback forums, not in "general discussion." It's a good feedback post.
Hah, I came into this forum top-down so I didn't notice the actual feedback forum. I posted a copy there.
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 7:51AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2009
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Very nice review nghtsngr, I'm glad that so much of the game worked well. I won't be able to playtest the game until next weekend so it's good to hear other's experiences.
The healing bit is a sore spot for me though but I'm not sure about the best way to address the issue. For me, the idea that a significant amount of hit points can be regained within the same day without the use of magic in some form smacks as being really unbelievable.
I would much rather have the whole surge idea thrown out and replaced by putting more focus on acquiring magical things which can cure you like a potion, a magical item, a scroll, or a cleric. Potions and Scrolls become commodities to be used with the group for trading and so forth, and the Cleric and or a secondary healer becomes significantly more important to the party.
So in the case of the playtest I wonder how it would play if each of the characters started off with a few potions, and or found a few potions along the way as loot? Would that accomplish the same thing?
Perhaps a roll playing solution could be used. As a DM I might allow one of the Clerics to make some grand request of their patron deity for an extra party heal at the expense of requiring the cleric to go on a quest, probably requiring the rest of the party to agree to undertake it as well.
The cover of the 1st edition Player’s Handbook by artist D.A. Trampier. A motley crew of adventurers, the bloodied bodies of lizard men, the hint of arcane malevolence surrounding the idol, the daring thieves prying the jewels from the statue. This is arguably the most iconic piece of art in all of RPGdom.
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 7:58AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2004
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Good write. I have to say though the healing issue is really a mind set adjustment. In early send play and other not 4e game I remember moving on with 1 hit point. People seem to have a different mind set now, but most table top games don't let you heal to full between encounters.
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 8:46AM
#6
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Date Joined:
Feb 19, 2012
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I agree with you on most points. However, I liked that out of combat healing wasn't very reliable. It forced my PC's fighter to reconsider how he'd proceed in future fights (after playing 4e for a long time). However, I could see the HD+Con Mod not being enough with how hard enemies hit. HD+Con Mod+Level might be sufficient. Also, the cleric of Pelor's healing gets totally rad at level 3. He can maximize the party's out of combat HD rolls, and his potions always heal 8.
Just... surviving there is dicey.
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning."
-Mike Mearls
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 8:50AM
#7
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Date Joined:
May 20, 2005
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I agree with you on most points. However, I liked that out of combat healing wasn't very reliable. It forced my PC's fighter to reconsider how he'd proceed in future fights (after playing 4e for a long time). However, I could see the HD+Con Mod not being enough with how hard enemies hit. HD+Con Mod+Level might be sufficient. Also, the cleric of Pelor's healing gets totally rad at level 3. He can maximize the party's out of combat HD rolls, and his potions always heal 8.
Just... surviving there is dicey.
That's actually something I don't understand, design-wise. Introducing that ability for the Cleric at level 3 suggests that WoTC already knows that healing at levels 1 and 2 will be really rough. So why not just make it less rough? I don't want to go back to a game where everyone just starts at level 3.
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 8:59AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Aug 16, 2007
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Nice post!
I wanted to point out, though, in an "old-school" style game session, where the point isn't to fight everything you see, many of these are features, not bugs.
1. Out of combat healing. If it's too easy to heal up between encounters, there's no reason to avoid taking damage.
2. Randomly rolled healing. See #1.
3. Combat healing options. See #1. Also, excessive "in combat" healing just drags fights out.
4. Advantage / Disadvantage. Yes!
8. Party endurance. See #1,2,3
Just some insight. Not a judgement.
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 9:01AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Feb 20, 2012
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I agree with you on most points. However, I liked that out of combat healing wasn't very reliable. It forced my PC's fighter to reconsider how he'd proceed in future fights (after playing 4e for a long time). However, I could see the HD+Con Mod not being enough with how hard enemies hit. HD+Con Mod+Level might be sufficient. Also, the cleric of Pelor's healing gets totally rad at level 3. He can maximize the party's out of combat HD rolls, and his potions always heal 8.
Just... surviving there is dicey.
That's actually something I don't understand, design-wise. Introducing that ability for the Cleric at level 3 suggests that WoTC already knows that healing at levels 1 and 2 will be really rough. So why not just make it less rough? I don't want to go back to a game where everyone just starts at level 3.
Some people apparently find ease of use morally offensive.
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 9:03AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Feb 19, 2012
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I agree with you on most points. However, I liked that out of combat healing wasn't very reliable. It forced my PC's fighter to reconsider how he'd proceed in future fights (after playing 4e for a long time). However, I could see the HD+Con Mod not being enough with how hard enemies hit. HD+Con Mod+Level might be sufficient. Also, the cleric of Pelor's healing gets totally rad at level 3. He can maximize the party's out of combat HD rolls, and his potions always heal 8.
Just... surviving there is dicey.
That's actually something I don't understand, design-wise. Introducing that ability for the Cleric at level 3 suggests that WoTC already knows that healing at levels 1 and 2 will be really rough. So why not just make it less rough? I don't want to go back to a game where everyone just starts at level 3.
That is... in turn a very good point. I think all of my 3.x games started at level 3 (or higher) because level 1 wasn't very fun anymore.
I think the game is designed to be more lethal (than 4e). The rad healing might just be a reward for making it that far alive. Also, that rad healing doesn't necessarily apply to higher level cleric spells. It might just maximize healing up to a certain level/quality in order to make low level healing spells viable for higher levels.
However, I think if a DM notices his group is taking an unusually high amount of punishment, then handing out a few extra healing potions (or making them do sidequests to earn them) might mitigate issues. I'd guess it depends on the group and attachment to characters.
"What's stupid is when people decide that X is true - even when it is demonstrable untrue or 100% against what we've said - and run around complaining about that. That's just a breakdown of basic human reasoning."
-Mike Mearls
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