3e and 4e, as imperfect as they are, at least have clear design goals. The only design goal of Next seems to be to make it like the older editions. This is the only explanation for a number of baffling design decisions. The result is that the design is unfocused. Game elements appear to be introduced without any thought to the effect they will have on the player experience, simply because of tradition. This is not how you design a good game.
I hope my impressions are wrong, but everything I've seen points in that direction.
Here are just a few game elements that should not be reintroduced:
Vancian Spellcasting I can understand wanting to make spells a daily resource once again. But why return to Vancian, one of the most unnecesarilly complex spellcasting systems? You could accomplish the same thing with Spell Points or Spellcasting Checks, without having to spend 20 minutes after each rest for the spellcasters to select their spells for the day. Vancian spellcasting is slow and restrictive, and it bogs down the game for everyone.
HP = GP Every edition of D&D except 4e has suffered from out-of-combat healing becoming meaningless after the first few levels. There's nothing stopping players from buying a barrel full of healing potions, and healing to full after each and every combat. Once healing potions become cheap enough, hp is no longer a daily resource.
Tracking Spell Durations Tracking the duration of each spell in effect is just one more thing that slows down combat. 1 minute is usually long enough to last for an entire encounter, so why not just make it explicitly last for the whole encounter and do away with some bookkeeping?
Complex Areas of Effect Next is supposedly a miniatures-optional game. I like my toys, but I can respect this decision. But if that's the case, why are some of the areas of effect so complicated? Without minis, it's difficult enough to determine what is targetted by a square blast or burst. It's even harder to determine what would be targetted by a cone or cylinder.
Spell Effects Based on HP Remaining Some spells, such as sleep, are stronger if the target has few hp remaining. Determining if the targets fall under that hp threshold is only possible through heavy metagaming. There's no internal logic behind this mechanic (lost hp doesn't weaken a character in any other way), so all it does is break immersion when the player asks which enemies have low enough hp and need to make a save. If a spell effect is too powerful, there are other ways to balance it. Make it higher level, or easier to save against, for example.
HP Rolls Rolling for hp is the most important roll you will ever make for a character, unless they reintroduce save-or-die spells (which would be another item for this list). The results of that roll will stay with the character forever, punishing or rewarding a player for the results of a single random die roll. The die roll doesn't even represent anything in particular, and there's no way to influence it. There's no reason for this important stat to be randomly-generated.
Vancian Magic is back for "flavor" more than for system needs of game balance.
HP = GP has always been true in D&D, and 5e does not look to change that (so far)
Making Spell Durations "Encounter" length sounds too much like 4e for those who hate it.
Complex AoEs are supposed to harken back to the wide variety of spells shapes/forms in earlier editions and are (probably) supposed to be more "evocative" in ToTM
Save or Die is back in full
HP Rolls are "Old School", Yo...get on the 5e wagon as the 4e bus is the only one that runs to Modern Town.
"I'm just killing time, since it's killing us." --Cyon Fal'Duur, Pathfinder Chronicler: Rogue Ascendant
That's my point, all of these game elements were added because that's the way they did things in older editions, not because they actually make a better game.
If WotC makes a mechanically perfect game, and the silly old grognards don't buy it because they want their silly old sacred cows, is it really a better game?
I would add abilty scores to this. Green Ronin got it right, IMO, first with True20 and then with Mutants and Masterminds 3e (and its counterpart DC Adventures). If you have an ability score of 16, and it gives you a +3 to relevant rolls, and the +3 part is pretty much all you use, then why bother with the number? Its a throwback and completely unneccessary.
For the most part I do agree with what you posted.
3e and 4e, as imperfect as they are, at least have clear design goals. The only design goal of Next seems to be to make it like the older editions. This is the only explanation for a number of baffling design decisions. The result is that the design is unfocused. Game elements appear to be introduced without any thought to the effect they will have on the player experience, simply because of tradition. This is not how you design a good game.
I hope my impressions are wrong, but everything I've seen points in that direction.
Here are just a few game elements that should not be reintroduced:
Vancian Spellcasting I can understand wanting to make spells a daily resource once again. But why return to Vancian, one of the most unnecesarilly complex spellcasting systems? You could accomplish the same thing with Spell Points or Spellcasting Checks, without having to spend 20 minutes after each rest for the spellcasters to select their spells for the day. Vancian spellcasting is slow and restrictive, and it bogs down the game for everyone.
I agree in general, that the Vancian concept is not ideal.
HP = GP Every edition of D&D except 4e has suffered from out-of-combat healing becoming meaningless after the first few levels. There's nothing stopping players from buying a barrel full of healing potions, and healing to full after each and every combat. Once healing potions become cheap enough, hp is no longer a daily resource.
As a DM, I generally do not allow 'free and easy healing' between every signifigant battle. No heal potion spam in my games.
Tracking Spell Durations Tracking the duration of each spell in effect is just one more thing that slows down combat. 1 minute is usually long enough to last for an entire encounter, so why not just make it explicitly last for the whole encounter and do away with some bookkeeping?
Yes, a hundred times yes!
Complex Areas of Effect Next is supposedly a miniatures-optional game. I like my toys, but I can respect this decision. But if that's the case, why are some of the areas of effect so complicated? Without minis, it's difficult enough to determine what is targetted by a square blast or burst. It's even harder to determine what would be targetted by a cone or cylinder.
Yes, no need for complicated area of effect. I would prefer an area to be more like: '1 target per level within 20' of the target', or something like that.
Spell Effects Based on HP Remaining Some spells, such as sleep, are stronger if the target has few hp remaining. Determining if the targets fall under that hp threshold is only possible through heavy metagaming. There's no internal logic behind this mechanic (lost hp doesn't weaken a character in any other way), so all it does is break immersion when the player asks which enemies have low enough hp and need to make a save. If a spell effect is too powerful, there are other ways to balance it. Make it higher level, or easier to save against, for example.
I agree, interesting idea but not worth the extra bookeeping/calculation
HP Rolls Rolling for hp is the most important roll you will ever make for a character, unless they reintroduce save-or-die spells (which would be another item for this list). The results of that roll will stay with the character forever, punishing or rewarding a player for the results of a single random die roll. The die roll doesn't even represent anything in particular, and there's no way to influence it. There's no reason for this important stat to be randomly-generated.
Well, some players may like random hp, but I would prefer HP to be (CON SCORE)+(CON MOD+1/max HD)xLEVEL
3e and 4e, as imperfect as they are, at least have clear design goals. The only design goal of Next seems to be to make it like the older editions. This is the only explanation for a number of baffling design decisions. The result is that the design is unfocused. Game elements appear to be introduced without any thought to the effect they will have on the player experience, simply because of tradition. This is not how you design a good game.
I hope my impressions are wrong, but everything I've seen points in that direction.
Here are just a few game elements that should not be reintroduced:
Vancian Spellcasting I can understand wanting to make spells a daily resource once again. But why return to Vancian, one of the most unnecesarilly complex spellcasting systems? You could accomplish the same thing with Spell Points or Spellcasting Checks, without having to spend 20 minutes after each rest for the spellcasters to select their spells for the day. Vancian spellcasting is slow and restrictive, and it bogs down the game for everyone.
HP = GP Every edition of D&D except 4e has suffered from out-of-combat healing becoming meaningless after the first few levels. There's nothing stopping players from buying a barrel full of healing potions, and healing to full after each and every combat. Once healing potions become cheap enough, hp is no longer a daily resource.
Tracking Spell Durations Tracking the duration of each spell in effect is just one more thing that slows down combat. 1 minute is usually long enough to last for an entire encounter, so why not just make it explicitly last for the whole encounter and do away with some bookkeeping?
Complex Areas of Effect Next is supposedly a miniatures-optional game. I like my toys, but I can respect this decision. But if that's the case, why are some of the areas of effect so complicated? Without minis, it's difficult enough to determine what is targetted by a square blast or burst. It's even harder to determine what would be targetted by a cone or cylinder.
Spell Effects Based on HP Remaining Some spells, such as sleep, are stronger if the target has few hp remaining. Determining if the targets fall under that hp threshold is only possible through heavy metagaming. There's no internal logic behind this mechanic (lost hp doesn't weaken a character in any other way), so all it does is break immersion when the player asks which enemies have low enough hp and need to make a save. If a spell effect is too powerful, there are other ways to balance it. Make it higher level, or easier to save against, for example.
HP Rolls Rolling for hp is the most important roll you will ever make for a character, unless they reintroduce save-or-die spells (which would be another item for this list). The results of that roll will stay with the character forever, punishing or rewarding a player for the results of a single random die roll. The die roll doesn't even represent anything in particular, and there's no way to influence it. There's no reason for this important stat to be randomly-generated.
I totally agree.
You could also add to the list the reintroduction of monsters whose sole power consists of a basic attack; monster descriptions that bury powers somewhere deep in the prose flavour text; and the lack of opportunity attacks.
"What is the sort of thing that I do care about is a failure to seriously evaluate what does and doesn't work in favor of a sort of cargo cult posturing. And yes, it's painful to read design notes columns that are all just "So D&D 3.5 sort of had these problems. We know people have some issues with them. What a puzzler! But we think we have a solution in the form of X", where X is sort of a half-baked version of an idea that 4e executed perfectly well and which worked fine." - Lesp "They are making it clear that when modern design and common sense come into conflict with tradition, tradition wins." - Thecasualoblivion
For you- those are all deal breakers. I get that, but most of your list I could view as minor complaints.
Vancian Spellcasting- I agree it's complicated, but to me it's rewarding and fun.
HP=GP- I couldn't have said it better myself, and it might be my only complaint so far as a DM with Next, although it works just fine in the constraints of the 3 level we were given. It does seem to be in line with the design goal to make magic items feel special and powerful but not essential to character progress. I hope that what we will gain from giving PCs the ability to create magic items (the cool factor for the player, the ability to create a character concept like the arcane metalsmith/ alchemist of myth and legend) will not be marred by misuse of such capabilities (the aforementioned wand of cure light wound or carts of potions).
Tracking Spell Durations- I can see why this was a pain in the ass at earlier editions, with sort durations or simply random durations, but lets not forget that 4E has tons of spell effects (and effects for power that aren't spells) that last a round or so, and tracking Conditions, Recharges, Ongoing Damage, Sustains, etc. was very difficult. With 1 minute durations, you can easily say the spell/ power lasts for the whole fight, something you could only say in 1E and 2E, and almost never at 4E (villain's Menace does come to mind).
Complex Areas of Effect- A valid point, although I can't see it as more than a minor problem, to be resolved after enough playtesting with Mini- Loving groups.
Spell Effects Based on HP Remaining- You are right it breaks immersion (we've seen it with spells only effecting monsters below a HD threshold in 3E). I think it can be solved by using descriptions like the Bloodied condition, which can be used as a descriptor in a normal sentence, maybe new descriptors that refer to weak creatures as well as wounded, stronger, creatures ("weakened" is pretty good, right?)
HP Rolls- I'm pretty sure WotC said it was an optional rule, and that they fully expect groups will rule average rolls of even maximum results.
All in all, those aren't major issues for myself and many others, but I do understand if you say these a deal- breakers for you. I do expect you to playtest some more and voice your objections and suggestions from the inside, in the interest of making D&D the game you want it to be (assuming you do care and haven't given up on it for other RPGs. But from your lengthy post I assume you do want this game to improve).
Vancian Spellcasting I think it is iconic and losing it was a big mistake of 4e. I think though they need additional types of casters to suit all the magical playing preferences that exist. Leaving out vancian though is bad for so many people that it would be crazy from a business perspective. Just provide more options and we are all fine. If your group hates vancian then ban it from your games class wise.
HP = GP I agree. I dislike mundane healing though. I'd much prefer a cleric or alchemist or herbalist be able to produce X magical healing potions per day that last for a single day. Since these potions are magic they don't break anyone's verisimilitude. They can then work much like surges work.
Tracking Spell Durations I think 1 minute == whole encounter. They chose real times to increase the flavor and hide the mechanics. The second I saw 1 minute I thought - entire encounter.
Complex Areas of Effect It is just as easy for ToTM people. It only get's harder with a grid. I believe they will include grid templates in their tactical rules module.
Spell Effects Based on HP Remaining I thought this number was max hit points and not current hit points. I ruled it that way in my last playtest game. If it is current hit points then I'd be for making it max hit points. It is intended as a power throttle.
HP Rolls Like alignment it is so easily houseruled why even worry at all. I'm sure the game will provide various options for rolling and not rolling everything in the game. Ability scores and hit points will be possible without rolling a die. For those that like to roll they can be happy too. Win win. If you are of the camp that thinks those who like die rolls are just stupid or don't get it, I might advise a step down off the high horse. While I don't prefer rolling hit points (I like rolling ability scores), I am smart enough to realize that different people like different things and there is fun in all ways for some people.
3e and 4e, as imperfect as they are, at least have clear design goals. The only design goal of Next seems to be to make it like the older editions. This is the only explanation for a number of baffling design decisions. The result is that the design is unfocused. Game elements appear to be introduced without any thought to the effect they will have on the player experience, simply because of tradition. This is not how you design a good game. I hope my impressions are wrong, but everything I've seen points in that direction.
The game is a work-in-progress and we've only scratched the surface. I expect it to change a lot over the next few months. I'm not sure that your conclusion, that this is not the way to design a good game, is based on anything more than gut feeling. It's probably wrong.
Vancian Spellcasting I can understand wanting to make spells a daily resource once again. But why return to Vancian, one of the most unnecesarilly complex spellcasting systems? You could accomplish the same thing with Spell Points or Spellcasting Checks, without having to spend 20 minutes after each rest for the spellcasters to select their spells for the day. Vancian spellcasting is slow and restrictive, and it bogs down the game for everyone.
I dislike pure vancian magic rules too. However, that's not what was introduced. It's a hybrid approach - some vancian, some at-will. I think it's a workable compromise.
HP = GP Every edition of D&D except 4e has suffered from out-of-combat healing becoming meaningless after the first few levels. There's nothing stopping players from buying a barrel full of healing potions, and healing to full after each and every combat. Once healing potions become cheap enough, hp is no longer a daily resource.
Yeah. Healing needs to change. There needs to be more healing in the hands of the clerics.
Tracking Spell Durations Tracking the duration of each spell in effect is just one more thing that slows down combat. 1 minute is usually long enough to last for an entire encounter, so why not just make it explicitly last for the whole encounter and do away with some bookkeeping?
Agreed. Durations should either be encounter or daily.
Complex Areas of Effect Next is supposedly a miniatures-optional game. I like my toys, but I can respect this decision. But if that's the case, why are some of the areas of effect so complicated? Without minis, it's difficult enough to determine what is targetted by a square blast or burst. It's even harder to determine what would be targetted by a cone or cylinder.
The more complete combat mechanics will fix this - I hope.
Spell Effects Based on HP Remaining Some spells, such as sleep, are stronger if the target has few hp remaining. Determining if the targets fall under that hp threshold is only possible through heavy metagaming. There's no internal logic behind this mechanic (lost hp doesn't weaken a character in any other way), so all it does is break immersion when the player asks which enemies have low enough hp and need to make a save. If a spell effect is too powerful, there are other ways to balance it. Make it higher level, or easier to save against, for example.
HP Rolls Rolling for hp is the most important roll you will ever make for a character, unless they reintroduce save-or-die spells (which would be another item for this list). The results of that roll will stay with the character forever, punishing or rewarding a player for the results of a single random die roll. The die roll doesn't even represent anything in particular, and there's no way to influence it. There's no reason for this important stat to be randomly-generated.
