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13 months ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 11:39AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Oct 27, 2007
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One of the key concerns with Caves of Chaos seems to be how well the module design lets me run the kinds of D&D adventure I want. The first thing I notice, and this is great, is that right up front the module bends over backward to accomodate fluid exploratory roleplay, ingenuity in approaching and ajudicating encounters, and a variety of approaches to the game.
My biggest issue though, is that the module itself doesn't seem to carry this ball as far. It's a series of caverns in a ravine with no real place for the PC's to congregate. There's supposed to be the Keep on the Borderlands (or the Chaos Scar, in the 4e magazine version) but that portion has been omitted in the playtest--but without it, there aren't many NPCs to bounce the characters off of. They have a mission, but it feels like one they're assumed to have already accepted. There are monsters you can parlay with, but most of the significant ones (the chieftains and cultists primarily) have no names or write-ups. Even the section on how to run the different monsters is more of an AI script on how they fight than an idea of goals, motivations, factions or anything that would make grist for a more roleplay centered approach to the game. Plus the bestiary seems to make it pretty clear that the races that inhabit the ravine are horrible. They're gross, evil, violent beasts that will lie to you, enslave you, murder you and eat you. Hard to roleplay off of that.
Now with 100% more Vorthos!
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13 months ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 11:44AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jan 30, 2012
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I started off my players as friends and graduates of adventuring academy in the city of Betatestia who won a map of the caves in a drinking contest. It seemed to be all I needed to get them out of town and kicking in the doors of monster homes. EDIT: And while they are horrid creatures, kobolds are easily cowed by their desire of self-preservation.
You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in an thread with GM_Champion" - but only slightly less well-known is this: "Never go in against AzureShade when card design is on the line!
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13 months ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 5:58PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Oct 27, 2007
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I guess I'm just looking for more out of a game than a dungeon crawl. They talk a lot in the introduction about wanting the module to be one you can approach from a variety of different angles and which you can play in a number of different ways. Pleading kobolds just doesn't do it for me.
That said, I'm planning to set the game in the Keep on the Chaos Scar (from the Dungeon magazine venue) and have each of the characters affiliated with a Nentir Vale faction--one wizard is a Saruun apprentice, another is with the Spiral Tower, the hill dwarf is following the spirit of his murdered father to get revenge, the priest of Pelor has been transfered to the keep from the Temple of the Sun in Fallcrest because of doctrinal differences with the boistrous dwarven leader of the church there.
I've also gone to a lot of trouble to name each of the chieftains in the ravine and to give each of them their own agendas and relationships with each other. Some of them might even be allies if the players give them the chance. All of it has been tied into the history of the Chaos Scar and the various organizations in the Nentir Vale monster book. I'm really really proud of it.
So it's not that I'm stumped (at least not anymore--a few days ago I was ripping out hair) it's just I wanted to drop a line about my first experiences with the module as a veteran roleplay intensive narrative DM.
Now with 100% more Vorthos!
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13 months ago ::
Jun 05, 2012 - 7:30PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2006
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I feel the same way. As a theater of mind player and DM I would like some more detail in order to create a more imersive experience. Mostly, I want to know what is in the area outside the dungeon, towns, keeps etc. I would also like to know who is in the area and what they are up to. For example, if there is a gnoll cheiftan in the region, what is his name? Why is he here? Does he have an agenda? The questions, once answered, make the world more in depth and imersive and allow for theater of mind people like me to have something to play off of. Let's say that there is bugbear leader in the area who is just plain horrible, but he has an underling who is much easier to deal with and might even be interested in working with the PCs. This underling would love to lead the tribe, but he's constantly being put down by his more aggressive leader. Now, the players may want to make a deal with the bugbear underling, or they may end up taking the kill them all approach, or they may try to play the two factions off against each other and then sweep up what's left. Anyway they choose, there's options now. A quick write up with the personality and motivations of each major player in the area, be they the local lord, tribal cheiftan or guard captian would go a long way to improving play and make it easier to run when I'm DMing.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 05, 2012 - 8:10PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2004
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I see comments such as these in a number of posts and I understand where people are coming from but I guess it is simply me approaching things differently. I look at this far more as how to approach the game than the story itself. Its more of experiencing the system, I am not sure many people would consider this an adventure of publishable quality and I would guess no one expected that to be the case. I would almost suggest to people that feel this way to do something that sadly to say would take a good deal of work. Find an adventure you like s a story. Use the stat blocks from the bestiary provided (so long as they would fit) and run that story with the rules/system provided. I still don't think it will be what you want, we have not seen anywhere close to a final edition and it will feel that way but it might give you a better idea of what it could feel like. If not you are the DM, this module promotes open play, swap things in and out and make a story, if you can come up with an idea to follow all the better for you and your players. Fixing the story is much easier to get what you are looking for than the mechanics. One thing I have found is if you typically play with a battlemat and mini's only pull them out for encounters, it will give much more of a "feel" for storytellers. I explained to my rogue, who has only played 4e, the history of the 10 ft. pole in game use and it gave him a much better understanding of what we were doing.
Lasciate ogne speranza, voi ch'intrate.
"Abandon all hope ye who enter here."
A child of 5 could understand this, someone bring me a child of 5.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 05, 2012 - 9:00PM
#6
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2002
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I don't think the "full" D&D experience is appropriate yet.
What I did, was run several encounters repeatedly, at levels 1, 2, and 3, mostly to see what would happen. We're supposed to be testing the physics engine, not critiquing the storyline.
If your guys get TPK'd, hit the reset button, then gameshark everybody up a level and try again.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 05, 2012 - 9:55PM
#7
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I'm not really sure why, as a self-proclaimed narrative GM, that you would complain when you are asked to create your own narrative.
I'm not saying you're wrong to feel that way, just that I don't get it. I have never liked any module I've ever read for any edition of pretty much any rpg, but I loved the caves of chaos. It basically did what I wanted--"here's some ideas or something, and we gave you a pretty good idea of what we intended for monsters. Go have fun."
Personally, I want to run my game, not someone else's that I'm just the caretaker of. I made up a small town nearby for the PCs to spend time in, complete with off the cuff NPCs they spent lots of time interacting with. They parleyed with the goblin king, whose personality I created on the spot as seemed appropriate. I came up with my own ideas of motivations for the factions and all.
Frankly, I would have been severely disappointed if I got the playtest packet you are describing. Again, you're not wrong to feel that way, but the game appears to (finally) be geared towards the me sort of GMs, which unfortunately does not seem to be the you sort of GM.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 05, 2012 - 11:03PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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I think for an actual published adventure you're absolutely right, but for a beta test that's sort of a waste of development time. They want us kicking the tires, not polishing the hubcaps (maybe not the best metaphor, but I think you see what I mean).
Also, the betatestia line got a hearty chuckle out loud from me.
Edit: Better metaphor (?): "They want us kicking the tires, which they still haven't put the hubcaps on."
'That's just, like, your opinion, man.'
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13 months ago ::
Jun 06, 2012 - 12:33AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2007
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I think for an actual published adventure you're absolutely right, but for a beta test that's sort of a waste of development time. They want us kicking the tires, not polishing the hubcaps (maybe not the best metaphor, but I think you see what I mean).
Also, the betatestia line got a hearty chuckle out loud from me.
Edit: Better metaphor (?): "They want us kicking the tires, which they still haven't put the hubcaps on."
Not to mention the car itself.
I agree as well.
Brave Knights of W.T.F. Gryphon Helm Winner.
Edition wars kill players, this will kill Dungeons and Dragons.
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13 months ago ::
Jun 06, 2012 - 5:02AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Aug 18, 2007
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As a play test lay out, the caves of chaos are a nice easy start that can be done in nice esy steps. in mention of the keep on the border lands (B2 from original D&D) i jsut pulled that adventure off the shelf and used the keep part for the basis of the adventur.
It would have also been as easy to use a camp site as a base of operations.
many early adventures had no start point except walking in the front door, i get the impression this play test was based this way
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