These should go wonderful together, Spell thief and Daggerspell Mage
But lets face it, at best you are still going into combat with two dagers, and very little else.
In addition as I am playing the "rogue" I have trap finding duties.
Alignemnt is "Non evil"
Looks like no templates, monster races are KoS (kill on sight) and anything that takes more then a few minutes to explain is out.
Book restrictions? Core books are in. The "complete" splatboots are in. Compendiums are in. I might be able to get Unearthed Arcana or Tome of Battle 9 Swords, but the location ones frostburn, stormwrack, sandstorm would require extensive backstory. UA and 9 swords, would have to be very much worth it, FS, SW, SS, are likely a step too far.
The best dagger I'm going to get is a pair of heavy Kukri isn't it? That means exotic weapon proficency. Is that worth it?
Can I draw spells out of divine casters too, or just arcane? GM will likely include psionics as a possible target for theft. I suspect I can depend on none of these. Either I'm going to get just enough spells to shore up my most glaring weaknesses, when I reach spell casting level, or touch attack spells that'll be delivered by the dagger spell in the late game, perhaps both, using the option to switch spells.
If I dual wield before taking daggerspell mage I see a problem emptying my hands for spell casting, ideas? How far to take the dual wield? Ranger 2? Ranger 6? Dual Strike?
The place to jump out is either level 2, or 5 isn't it? Or staying one more level in either case for the added sneak attack dice?
Oh, gm warning, not safe to travel at night, and villagers are burning bodies. I suspect heavy undead, nutralizing sneak attack. Can we counter that?
Stats have been rolled: 16 15 14 14 13 7
My first attempt was a monstrocity that tried to kludge it in with spellblades. My seccond attempt was a nasty job of more sneak attack then was healthy, scout/spellthief/daggerspell/gladiator My third attempt went back to basics, trying first ranger, and then exotic weapon master to get dual wield early.
The good news, starting at level 3, so no matter how bad those first levels would be. I won't have to be there.
Looking for a level by level build from there, with altranates incase it's too strange or complex. No need about the gm catching on, if there's a risk he will, we're pushing too hard.
Prefered classes are half elf, elf, and human. Pitty we can't get darkvision into this.
As for equipment, open ticket on anything nonmagical at level 3, as long as I can write backstory for it and fit it to the character. Looks like magical items either have to be in cost and scale for level 3, or very well written in the backstory. (Dagger +1, ok, heirloom +3 sword of thunderblow 'maybe')
(in good faith to show I've searched) The classic example for rogues comes from Complete Adventurer; the spell in question was reprinted in the Spell Compendium. Complete Adventurer offers a "wand chamber" for +100gp; this lets you slot a wand into your weapon and treat the wand as being in your hand while you hold the weapon. The wand you want is Wraithstrike (Sor/Wiz 2); it's a swift-action spell (meaning using the wand is a swift action - check the Rules Compendium to be certain) that turns all your attacks for 1 round into touch attacks (which more than makes up for your low attack bonus; touch attacks have a tendency to hit all but the fastest characters).
Be warned: Wraithstrike is widely considered ridiculously strong (to the point of possibly breaking the game) if used in this capacity. But there are other options as well (read, and understood, ace stored up sleeve)
The first of many questions I have is: how many levels of D.S.M. are you planning on taking? That alone would help me in planning what to do. Next, what are the other players doing as far as characters? Third, are Dragon magazine, Wizards website stuff, Faerun, and/or Eberron usable?
Depending on your answer, this is the build I have in mind for you; Race: Human; Build: Mystic Ranger 4 (from Dragon 336, plus the Arcane Hunter ACF from Complete Mage)/Spellthief 4/Psychic Rogue 2 (found here: www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20... )/DSM 10 Lv. 1 Weapon Focus (dagger), open Lv. 3 open Lv. 6 Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor (if having trouble describing the book, say that the is a bunch of ACF's and feats that fit and describe the followers of the various good dieties of Faerun, a high magic campaign, and goes into a great amount of detail to do so)) Lv. 9 Master Spellthief (Complete Scoundrel) Lv. 12 Psithief (Complete Scoundrel) Lv. 15 Assume Mantel (Light and Darkness) (Complete Psionic) Lv. 18 Don Mantel (Light and Darkness)
Mystic Ranger gives you the ability to cast 5th level spells from a small list, in addition to some other things listed here: brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.p... and here: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758... (note that the BG boards assume that everything is permitted, reguardless of wether or not your DM would disagree on questions of legality, so take any advice from there with a grain of salt, and that they started a new board so the link is just read only.), the Light and Darkness mantel (psionic version of a domain) from Complete Psionic gives you Darkvision for free.
As to what the other players are doing, the best anti-undead PrC to aim for is Knight of the Raven from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft (short description: Evil wizard gets turned into a vampire, and along with his loads of undead minions, takes over a kingdom to rule. The PC's must team up with the few remaining good guys and off the Wizard). Full BAB, d8 HD, 9/10 casting, Smite Undead, and a host of other goodies for a divine character. I'll type some more stuff later, but I will continue when I more help to give and something to help justify what I have already offered.
Book restrictions? Core books are in. The "complete" splatboots are in. Compendiums are in. I might be able to get Unearthed Arcana or Tome of Battle 9 Swords, but the location ones frostburn, stormwrack, sandstorm would require extensive backstory. UA and 9 swords, would have to be very much worth it, FS, SW, SS, are likely a step too far.
So if it's not in the books, it's out. That means dragon is out.
It's not on eberon or ferun, so I know I can't talk him into those.
That collection looks far too complicated, and would take more then 5 minutes to explain (complete with backstory) ... no way I can get away with it.
Would it even be a dependable trap checker (why I was told to play a rogue in the first place)?
I think I also asked how many levels of daggerblade are good for the combination... sorry if I wasn't very clear, but it looks like 2 is a good number, but so does 5. Or I could take 3, or 6, and get sneak attack out of it.
I'm going to go read complete scoundrel now though, that you've suggested a few things from it, tells me it's very likely going to have missing pieces I need.
First of all, the Spellthief can steal divine spells, as well as arcane. The Psithief feat in Complete Scoundrel will let you steal psionics as well. If you're worried about casting with two daggers, you can either take Somatic Weaponry as a feat, or take TWF at 6th-level (I think that's legal), or have TWF and just not use it.
What are your goals for this character? Not RP-wise, but mechanically, what do you want to do? If your goal is to steal as many spells of sa high a level as possible, there's a way to do that. If your goal is to be able to cast spells of your own, there's a way to do that, etc. For example: why do you want to be a Daggerspell Mage? Do you need to PrC?
A trick for easy entry (spellthief only) into the DSM is to take Practiced Spellcaster. That adds +4 to your CL, up to your HD, giving you a CL of 5 at Spellthief level 5.
The feat Master Spellthief lets you combine spellthief levels with "other arcane class" levels for certain purposes, inlcuding max spell level you can steal and caster level for both classes. And it lets you cast the arcane spells you steal while in light armor. I don't know if DSM would count as an "other arcane casting class", though my thinking is that it doesn't, so you may not want to use it. Assuming Master Spellthief works with DSM and PHB2 is allowed, you may want to use Practiced Spellcaster for early entry, then retrain it to Master Spellthief.
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But lets face it, at best you are still going into combat with two dagers, and very little else.
True, but most Rogues end up in combat with daggers (or other small weapons)...that's part and parcel of the class; they're not meant to be the center of attention.
In addition as I am playing the "rogue" I have trap finding duties.
Trapfinding...not trap disarming There are mundane ways to trigger most every trap (poles to poke pressure plates/disturb liquids, stuff like that), so unless it's a trap that resets itself (or would block your path...but what kind of DM would do that?), you're okay with only a dip in Disable Device. If there's a Scout or a Factotum that's willing (or a character with Jack of All Trades, Able Learner, or the Bardic Knack ACF), you could completely ignore DD.
The best dagger I'm going to get is a pair of heavy Kukri isn't it? That means exotic weapon proficency. Is that worth it?
Your DM doesn't allow non-core books (with exceptions), but allows the SRD-brewed items? Odd...unless it appeared in another book and I can't find it...
Either way, they're probably your best option. You could apply flaws (from UA) to pick up a couple extra feats (one of which being the proper EWP). This also would open up the Exotic Weapon Master (from Complete Warrior) for use...Flurry of Strikes grants an extra attack (which, if applicable, would be a sneak attack), Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting grants TWF (or a reduction if you already have the actual feat), and Trip Attack lets you trip with your exotic (which reduces your opponent's AC, which makes it easier to follow up).
If I dual wield before taking daggerspell mage I see a problem emptying my hands for spell casting, ideas?
Daggerspell Mage actually allows you to cast with your hands full of daggers...the Daggercast ability at level 1 allows it. Whether your DM considers kukri to be daggers is up in the air, though...
I suspect heavy undead, nutralizing sneak attack. Can we counter that?
Wraithstrike would work, but there are also at least one feat that allows it (at a penalty). Undead Bane and Holy weapons could also help...they don't allow sneak attacking, but they deal a bit more damage to undead and evil enemies, respectively. Whacking an evil undead would be best
You might also want to look at the Invisible Blade PrC. The requirements are kinda restrictive/odd (Bluff 8, Sense Motive 6; Far Shot? Point Blank Shot??), but it has a good BAB progression (5/5), dagger sneak attack (+3d6 with daggers, punching daggers...and kukri), and it adds 1 point of Int bonus to your AC per IB level (wearing no armor and wielding two of the above weapons). It also allows feinting in combat as a free action at 5 and allows taking 10 on Bluff to feint in combat...this would allow you to make liberal use of your sneak attacks.
On a side note, Daggercast allows you to cast touch spells through your daggers...which would then allow you to add your full sneak attack damage to the spell (sneak attacks are allowed with spells, as long as they require an attack roll and deal damage). If you went Invisible Blade, I could make the argument that the spells cast through the kukri (by virtue of Daggercast) would also get the dagger sneak attack bonus.
First of all, the Spellthief can steal divine spells, as well as arcane. The Psithief feat in Complete Scoundrel will let you steal psionics as well. If you're worried about casting with two daggers, you can either take Somatic Weaponry as a feat, or take TWF at 6th-level (I think that's legal), or have TWF and just not use it.
Somatic weaponry, or from level 1 of daggerspell. That would give me the same ability twice, feels wasted taking somatic weaponry as a feat then?
What are your goals for this character? Not RP-wise, but mechanically, what do you want to do? If your goal is to steal as many spells of sa high a level as possible, there's a way to do that. If your goal is to be able to cast spells of your own, there's a way to do that, etc. For example: why do you want to be a Daggerspell Mage? Do you need to PrC?
Starts out with it just looking like a cool thematic idea. Take thief, with a touch of mage, and put them in a class that's all about being a thief/mage.
Mechanically, I'm looking forward to the daggercast tricks. To swipe a spell, and then dagger cast it into somebody, or arcane fire it. The possibility that the self only spells the cleric and sorc know, will not truly be self only. Backup healing, a cleric can't stabilize themselves if they pass out.
And my required role is to be able to do the party thief lockpicking, trapbreaking and sneaking duties. Party contains a bard for diplomacy, so I can relax on the bluff check.
The jumping out points on daggerspell mage, to me, look like either 2, after taking care of the whole 'hands full' thing, and getting some basic tricks. Or 5, getting the ability to charge in both. With as few spells per day as a spellthief has, this is a dangerous thing to do, but might be useful. In either case going one more level gives more sneak attack, and might be worth while.
I do not think staying in for arcane fire, due to a limited number of spell casts per day, fits well.
A trick for easy entry (spellthief only) into the DSM is to take Practiced Spellcaster. That adds +4 to your CL, up to your HD, giving you a CL of 5 at Spellthief level 5.
Check. "practiced spellcaster" got it. Though, admittedly, 10 levels of spellthief isn't onerous.
The feat Master Spellthief lets you combine spellthief levels with "other arcane class" levels for certain purposes, including max spell level you can steal and caster level for both classes. Assuming Master Spellthief works with DSM and PHB2 is allowed, you may want to use Practiced Spellcaster for early entry, then retrain it to Master Spellthief.
retrain? PHB 2 right? We don't have a copy in group, I'll download and pass it around to get the concept spoken.
Trapfinding...not trap disarming There are mundane ways to trigger most every trap (poles to poke pressure plates/disturb liquids, stuff like that), so unless it's a trap that resets itself (or would block your path...but what kind of DM would do that?), you're okay with only a dip in Disable Device. If there's a Scout or a Factotum that's willing (or a character with Jack of All Trades, Able Learner, or the Bardic Knack ACF), you could completely ignore DD.
Nope, no scouts. A cleric, a paladin, a sorc, a bard, and me. No passing disable divice off to others, so it better be a class skill for all my early levels, and half of my later ones. I'm going to need to carry masterwork lockpicks and longspoon lockpicks.
That's why I kept tossing out builds I came up myself with dips into swashbuckler, or dervish or... too complicated, and not enough "classic thief"
The best dagger I'm going to get is a pair of heavy Kukri isn't it? That means exotic weapon proficiency. Is that worth it?
Your DM doesn't allow non-core books (with exceptions), but allows the SRD-brewed items? Odd...unless it appeared in another book and I can't find it...
I was hoping somebody would find it. I don't have access to every book...
So what IS the best knife I can find out there?
Is it worth it to take an exotic one?
Taking exotic proficiency instead of twf, and weapon focus, that I'd be taking anyway, lets me dip into exotic weapon master, giving me a stunt that should count as two weapon fighting, with full bab. Course it's skills are a joke. Not the best path? I really don't know, I really can't tell.
Either way, they're probably your best option. You could apply flaws (from UA) to pick up a couple extra feats (one of which being the proper EWP). This also would open up the Exotic Weapon Master (from Complete Warrior) for use...Flurry of Strikes grants an extra attack (which, if applicable, would be a sneak attack), Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting grants TWF (or a reduction if you already have the actual feat), and Trip Attack lets you trip with your exotic (which reduces your opponent's AC, which makes it easier to follow up).
The dagger's arn't a double weapon, so flurry of strikes does not work. But trip could be argued as worth a 2nd dip.
If I dual wield before taking daggerspell mage I see a problem emptying my hands for spell casting, ideas?
Daggerspell Mage actually allows you to cast with your hands full of daggers...the Daggercast ability at level 1 allows it. Whether your DM considers kukri to be daggers is up in the air, though...
If I don't get into daggerspell for dagger cast until level 11, means I've got to find a way to cast with my hands full, or empty my hands quickly, from level 3 to level 10, inclusive. Dagger of returning? Would I need quick draw too, because if I do then I just should take somatic weaponry and retrain it... assuming I can get the DM to let me retrain it latter after it's redundant.
On the other hand, practiced spellcaster lets me in earlier, I just also need to qualify with a TWF and the BAB. So exotic weapon master at 7, daggerspell at 8? Taking craft weaponsmith early, I can craft the masterwork daggers (exotic ones... what ones?) myself, with wand slots.
This requires finding an exotic dagger, worth using, in a standard book... any ideas?
(taking 3 levels of daggerspell, jumping out after 3, puts me back in spellthief from 11-20, or staying in daggerspell to 10 gives me caster levels, but less rogue levels)
I suspect heavy undead, neutralizing sneak attack. Can we counter that?
Wraithstrike would work, but there are also at least one feat that allows it (at a penalty). Undead Bane and Holy weapons could also help...they don't allow sneak attacking, but they deal a bit more damage to undead and evil enemies, respectively. Whacking an evil undead would be best
Right, wraithstrike, what is it, where can I find it?
You might also want to look at the Invisible Blade PrC. The requirements are kinda restrictive/odd (Bluff 8, Sense Motive 6; Far Shot? Point Blank Shot??), but it has a good BAB progression (5/5), dagger sneak attack (+3d6 with daggers, punching daggers...and kukri), and it adds 1 point of Int bonus to your AC per IB level (wearing no armor and wielding two of the above weapons). It also allows feinting in combat as a free action at 5 and allows taking 10 on Bluff to feint in combat...this would allow you to make liberal use of your sneak attacks.
the oddities come from it being a 10 level one, once. I've been reading things off these boards, and yes, it could get very deadly, either in it's short form, or in the original 10 level form. This puts me back into the 'big sneak attack' category, and takes me away from being able to handle the traps. Sadly if I told the gm this, I don't think I'd get approval.
On a side note, Daggercast allows you to cast touch spells through your daggers...which would then allow you to add your full sneak attack damage to the spell (sneak attacks are allowed with spells, as long as they require an attack roll and deal damage). If you went Invisible Blade, I could make the argument that the spells cast through the kukri (by virtue of Daggercast) would also get the dagger sneak attack bonus.
I might make that argument that the daggercast works as a sneak attack, just with the 3d6 of sneak attack I'd have by then anyway.
As you can tell, I'm not very good at this. I do appreciate the help. There's quite a few nice things here that arn't going to be too complicated.
It seems that you want to be a rogue first, caster second. The two best options for this do not include DSM. You could do Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage). If you do Spellthief 15/AbChamp 5 that gives you a BAB of 16 (which is important for being able to hit your enemy and use SA), a spellthief caster level of 10 (or 12), and a CL for abjuration spells of 16. If you decide on an elf, all it would take is selecting an abjuration spell as one of your spellthief spells (Shield is especially good for an AbChamp), Combat Casting, and BAB +6. That lets you in as a straight Spellthief at level 9.
The other option is the Arcane Trickster from the DMG. Sadly, it's the only arcane PrC I've been able to find that also has Disable Device and Open Lock as class skills. It also increases arcane casting at every level. I don't know if you'd qualify as a straight Spellthief, since it requires Mage Hand and Decipher Script, but it shouldn't be hard to get into.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice
"My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan
This user has been brought to you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Buttler of the House of Trolls
I am looking for rogue first, caster second, but I still want to daggerspell, take a spell, dagercast it, and stab them with it... just too good to resist.
a level of daggerspell makes somatic castic unneeded as a feat.
Arcane trickster, sounds good. With master spellthief it all stacks. (opened my dmg, arcane archer? Let me guess, I got the 3.0 and it's in the 3.5?)
Rogue with just a touch of spell casting to expand the possible dirty tricks.
I'm just looking to get in as many dirty tricks as I can, without it looking too complicated.
So, daggers. What is out there, that's a exotic dagger, that's worth using?
If the answer is none, just take TWF as a proficency instead?
I am looking for rogue first, caster second, but I still want to daggerspell, take a spell, dagercast it, and stab them with it... just too good to resist.
Fair enough.
a level of daggerspell makes somatic castic unneeded as a feat.
Yes it does.
Arcane trickster, sounds good. With master spellthief it all stacks. (opened my dmg, arcane archer? Let me guess, I got the 3.0 and it's in the 3.5?)
That's a possibility, though I doubt it. It's in the DMG betweeen Arcane Archer and Archmage.
So, daggers. What is out there, that's a exotic dagger, that's worth using?
If the answer is none, just take TWF as a proficency instead?
Probably. I can't think of any true daggers that are Exotic Weapons, except for Punching Daggers.
"Today's headlines and history's judgment are rarely the same. If you are too attentive to the former, you will most certainly not do the hard work of securing the latter." -Condoleezza Rice
"My fellow Americans... I've just signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. Bombing begins in five minutes." - Ronald Reagan
This user has been brought to you by the letters "O-R-C" and the numbers "2, 3, 4, and 6"
Resident Pithed-Off Dragon Buttler of the House of Trolls
I am looking for rogue first, caster second, but I still want to daggerspell, take a spell, dagercast it, and stab them with it... just too good to resist.
Fair enough.
a level of daggerspell makes somatic castic unneeded as a feat.
Yes it does.
Arcane trickster, sounds good. With master spellthief it all stacks. (opened my dmg, arcane archer? Let me guess, I got the 3.0 and it's in the 3.5?)
That's a possibility, though I doubt it. It's in the DMG betweeen Arcane Archer and Archmage.
So, daggers. What is out there, that's a exotic dagger, that's worth using?
If the answer is none, just take TWF as a proficency instead?
Probably. I can't think of any true daggers that are Exotic Weapons, except for Punching Daggers.
I've got arcane archer, then assassin, then blackguard, don't even have archmage.
If I was to go get one book looking for exotic dagers, what one would be most likely to have one?
Is there something that can be done in crafting to render a dagger exotic?
Is there a double dager (dagger on both ends) that could be wielded 1 handed exotic?
There are mundane ways to trigger most every trap (poles to poke pressure plates/disturb liquids, stuff like that), so unless it's a trap that resets itself (or would block your path...but what kind of DM would do that?), you're okay with only a dip in Disable Device. If there's a Scout or a Factotum that's willing (or a character with Jack of All Trades, Able Learner, or the Bardic Knack ACF), you could completely ignore DD.
