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1 year ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 7:17PM
#61
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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As a long-time GM I can tell you flat-out that the more codified rules there are, the harder it is to make GM rulings. Someone will always say "but the rules say this", and then you have an argument.
Allen
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1 year ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 8:45PM
#62
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As a long-time GM I can tell you flat-out that the more codified rules there are, the harder it is to make GM rulings. Someone will always say "but the rules say this", and then you have an argument.
Allen
That's not a system problem. That's a rules lawyer problem. Players who are not rules lawyers may be puzzled why the DM is contradicting the rules as written, but I've never seen that be an issue when the player is not a rules lawyer. I've even been in that situation myself. I've contradicted a rule, had a player cite the rule, and I told him I was modifying it and I'd explain why later. Most players are reasonable and willing to accommodate the DM's creativity. The problem arises when the DM is inconsiderate about it, and the player feels screwed-over.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
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so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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1 year ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 9:04PM
#63
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Date Joined:
Nov 24, 2009
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IMO, it's not the main problem what bearform laid out. The Problem ist not really players wanting to have a rule for everyting, but DMs, that are not able to justly rule everything. It needs a good DM to do that - as it was in the old days, there were NO rules on improvisation whatsoever, which tended to very strange houserules and codified rules for reuse.
People on here always argue, that it's easy to just eyeball something, or to make up a ruling on the spot: trust me, it's not. You're just blinded by your experiences. A new DM, and we will always have those, will have the hardest time adjudicating a system like 1e,2e, while 4e will work like a charm. (e.g. you have improv. damage rules, standard DCs, etc)
NEXT is clearly trying to get those improv rules in place, without resorting to over-complicated powers to get these actions to the players... once a day/encounter.
NEXT-Playtest as written gives currently more than that back to the DM, which I see as a problem. Grab/Grapple/Trip are NOT exceptions or improvisations. Every DM would have a personal ruling on those things in place soon, and that's why its bad.
This is exactly why i think there should be a book set out or even suggested reading for story telling and understanding what is "too far" and "too little" when making an on-the-fly ruling. Some people are just terrible at it either through lack of personal life experience or just poor DMing skills. So yes you are essentially "blind by your experiences" and even moreso from the lack of them. I readily agree with you on this one.
I think this is where "Sage Advice" in the past issues of Dragon Magazine cleared up a great deal of arguable considerations that came up often at gaming tables, they offered rulings and sometimes just suggestions.
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1 year ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 12:07AM
#64
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Anyone out here who can't name a baseball player?
Anyone out here who can name a baseball umpire?
Same thing for D&D. The center of interest is the players and the DM/umpire is just there to keep things moving. He's effectively just a machine. We don't want to give him more power. In fact, we are looking at ways to get rid of him.
Now we have to give the DM a lot of power. The game just can't run otherwise, and other times it can't run well. But we want to limit that power as much as we can. We may want a story, but we are not there to recite Macbeth. Instead, we want the players in some degree deciding if Macbeth gets executed, reformed, or other. Often enough, it is just simpler, and better, to follow the railroad, but this is our fallback position, not our desired solution.
[And if anyone deems it relevant, I DM more than I play.]
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1 year ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 12:28AM
#65
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Date Joined:
May 26, 2012
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Anyone out here who can't name a baseball player?
Anyone out here who can name a baseball umpire?
Same thing for D&D. The center of interest is the players and the DM/umpire is just there to keep things moving. He's effectively just a machine. We don't want to give him more power. In fact, we are looking at ways to get rid of him.
Now we have to give the DM a lot of power. The game just can't run otherwise, and other times it can't run well. But we want to limit that power as much as we can. We may want a story, but we are not there to recite Macbeth. Instead, we want the players in some degree deciding if Macbeth gets executed, reformed, or other. Often enough, it is just simpler, and better, to follow the railroad, but this is our fallback position, not our desired solution.
[And if anyone deems it relevant, I DM more than I play.]
While it is a clear case of opinion...
For me a DM is what makes the game worth playing. I can replace a DM pretty easily with a computer game and work with a team as a party to unravel any number of stories. I can write software that umpires a game consisting solely of numbers like D&D. A machine is souless though, one hopes DMs aren't.
The only time I would want to limit my DMs power is when that DM is malicious. I see no reason to play at the table with that DM.
Your DMs might be closer to umpires, I like to think I and my DMs are closer to writers with the challenges of adapting their stories on the fly to fit characters they didn't create or anticipate. I can name several of my favorite authors. I would bet most people can name at least one.
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1 year ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 1:13AM
#66
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Anyone out here who can't name a baseball player?
Anyone out here who can name a baseball umpire?
Same thing for D&D. The center of interest is the players and the DM/umpire is just there to keep things moving.
My experiences likely differ, but when my old gaming buddies discuss past games they rarely get referenced by "Remember that game that Bob and Joe were players in?" unless it is about something stupid somebody did. Positive discussions usually end up referenced by "Remember the game that Steve ran where we faced the lich lords" or "Remember that one time in Nazbol's vampire campaign?" If a DM is so unrelated to the game at hand that they are no better then a baseball umpire, then the players (and that DM) would probably be better off playing a computer game.
If we are using baseball terms, I look at a DM as a coach, not an umpire.
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1 year ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 1:32AM
#67
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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I'm reading these forums and i'm seeing people complaining that "Power" has been given to the DM. I don't understand why this is a problem. The DM runs that game, sets the rules, and makes the judgment calls. If the DM wants to make a low magic world and have very few magic items then where is the problem? On the flip side if the DM wants to hand out magic and magic items out like candy, they should be able to.
Could some one please explain why people are so upset about the DM having being in control?
Think of it more as 'burden' than 'power.' If a game is well-designed, complete, and playable, its easy to run because some of the work you need to do to run a good game has been done for you. If a game is vague, incomplete, and requires frequent rule interpretations/changes to keep it flowing, the DM has more work to do before he can get around to making his campagin enjoyable.
He doesn't really have more or less power in either case - a DM can always take a tight, well-done game and tinker with, re-interpret or re-imagine it if he wants.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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1 year ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 2:38AM
#68
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Date Joined:
Mar 20, 2001
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Could some one please explain why people are so upset about the DM having being in control?
It's not the game world that people are most upset about the DM controlling, it is their own character's abilities.
For example a 4th Ed (even a 3rd Ed) rogue player had control over when he got his sneak attack, because he could move to a flanking position or use a (trick if he was a Essentials thief).
Now the Rogue has to ask the DM if there are enough shadows or cover to hide in. If the DM says none then the player is screwed out of using his class ability.
Switching back to actual time as durations for spells, means that a spell might last for one encounter or maybe two or even three, and really it's up to the DM depending on how long he thinks you spent between encounters. So you need to persuade the DM you only spent 5 minutes searching not 45 minutes, for example?
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1 year ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 7:50AM
#69
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Date Joined:
Dec 12, 2005
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Anyone out here who can't name a baseball player?
Anyone out here who can name a baseball umpire?
Same thing for D&D. The center of interest is the players and the DM/umpire is just there to keep things moving. He's effectively just a machine. We don't want to give him more power. In fact, we are looking at ways to get rid of him.
Now we have to give the DM a lot of power. The game just can't run otherwise, and other times it can't run well. But we want to limit that power as much as we can. We may want a story, but we are not there to recite Macbeth. Instead, we want the players in some degree deciding if Macbeth gets executed, reformed, or other. Often enough, it is just simpler, and better, to follow the railroad, but this is our fallback position, not our desired solution.
[And if anyone deems it relevant, I DM more than I play.]
The DM as an umpire analogy is completely ridiculous in my opinion. I would say the DM is more like the writer, director, producer for a blockbuster film. I don't think you want to get rid of those roles or limit their power.
My LFR Modules: Spoiler:
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EAST1-3 Unbidden (H3)
EAST2-3 Nightmares (P1)
NETH3-1 Secrets and Shadows (Paragon Tier) (Author)
ELTU3-6 True Blue (Heroic Tier) (Author)
EPIC3-3 The Tangled Skein of Destiny (Co-Author)
ABER4-3 A Little Rebellion (Paragon Tier) (Author)
WATE4-1 Paying the Piper (Heroic Tier) (Co-Author)
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1 year ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 8:03AM
#70
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Date Joined:
May 20, 2005
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The DM as an umpire analogy is completely ridiculous in my opinion. I would say the DM is more like the writer, director, producer for a blockbuster film. I don't think you want to get rid of those roles or limit their power.
Actually, good writers and directors are made better by having their power limited. Give them absolutely unfettered power and a great many of them start thinking their poop smells like bakery-fresh cinnamon rolls.
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