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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 10:01AM
#71
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Avenger/monk seems weaker than a regular monk at control and weaker than a regular avenger at striking. The only thing that stands out is that its better at non standard action attacks than a regular monk.
But the two classes seem to be really at odds with each other. One wants only one enemy next to him and the other wants as many as possible. Are we missing something?
Painful Oath doesn't care what power you use or whether you're actually getting your oath rerolls, so this ends up being a monk that's slightly better at single-target damage by adding +Wis again, and trades away whatever at-will that isn't Five Storms for a serviceable MBA. Your dailies are still weaksauce either way, but you do end up getting access to at least 2 nonstandard attack encounters, of which Fury's Advance can be recycled again via Divine Mastery in Epic for a credible nova.
I think this is fine, and would play it over a regular monk. The key is to not get hung up on the fact that you're losing your Oath rerolls.
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 10:11AM
#72
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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GO: I think that's almost the point. If you're surrounded, you're a monk. If you're open, you're an avenger. Either way, you're getting a striker class feature (and a half, come paragon)
I thinkthe Avenger feat starvation will be an issue, but it should be a decent build in a normal game.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 10:17AM
#73
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2002
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GO: I think that's almost the point. If you're surrounded, you're a monk. If you're open, you're an avenger. Either way, you're getting a striker class feature (and a half, come paragon)
I thinkthe Avenger feat starvation will be an issue, but it should be a decent build in a normal game.
It definitely shouldn't be that bad. In a way, it is a way to optimize a Monk. The only real difficulty is that as a Monk, you're not really going to want to wield a two-handed weapon due to how starblade flurry works and that will ding the Avenger side of things.
NETH4-1 Containing Shadow (co-author) Handbooks
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 10:23AM
#74
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Thri-kreen, yo. Their new feat is pretty good for that.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 10:33AM
#75
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2008
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I think I see what you are getting at. The two characters I am currently regularly playing are a desert wind monk in an early paragon campaign and a pursuit avenger in a mid heroic campaign. I don't see how either would gain that much from hybriding with the other since I rarely have trouble getting my avenger to be isolated or with getting my monk next to multiple enemies. I think I attacked something like 8 different enemies with one daily + an extra one with starblade flurry last time I played him.
It also seems like a big resource inverstment for starblade flurry since you normally want a two handed weapon for an avenger. You need that new thrikreen feat that mand mentions for it to work well.
Monk hybrids well and see people on charop arguing that it can be a good striker hybrid, but I think I would normally want something non-striker going for it and has some good non standard action implement attacks. Cleric or paladin for instance. Avenger/monk might work if you tweak it right, but I wouldn't be interested in it.
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 11:09AM
#76
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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I once explored the possibility of monk hybrid when trying to get monk unarmed strike to a point where it's useful. The idea I had was to take the brawler fighter/monk and turn it into fighter|monk in the hopes of upping its damage after locking down a target, preferably something squishy and bad at melee like a controller or artillery. Taking it away from the more dedicated defender role with limited damage to the single-target melee controller-striker range.
Unfortunately, hybrid monk tends to fail miserably at doing that. MUS isn't granted to the hybrid without the use of hybrid talent, which seems really quite stupid given the new monk MC feat that grants it. Plus, using hybrid talent for anything other than an armor boost/prof pretty much screws over hybrid monk.
I had to completely abandon the idea, which made me sad. Pretty stupid when MC monk outperforms hybrid monk at a basic level.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 11:24AM
#77
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Date Joined:
Jan 21, 2011
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Avenger|Monk is really nice power-wise. I find with both classes I am short on really great powers, but when combining them that's a lot easier. Even better, Overwhelming Strike + Five Storms means 1) you have options regardless of whether or not you can isolate/group the enemy, and 2) you have shift 2 starting at level 1. Being a charge-vengerjust got much easier.
My biggest problem with the combination is that it's particularly feat-starved early on, because there are so many extra taxes (hybrid talent, unarmored agility, and power of skill beyond the expertise and defenses that all characters take).
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 2:42PM
#78
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Ok, it seems I'm interested in resurrecting my higher-damage brawler concept, and I've got a couple of ideas for critique.
The Basics:
The ultimate goal is to capitalize on the fact that very little of the Brawler's defenderness relies on the mark and its associated punishment. The vast majority of it comes in the form of brutal melee control. You can't attack my friends because you're stuck under my boot and can't fight anyone effectively, not even me. Which means that going hybrid fighter loses very little of that control if I attack with a striker half with the goal of doing higher damage, if I've already got the grab going. Note that I'm not expecting this to hit the higher end of the striker benchmarks on a round-over-round average - the goal is to improve on the damage output over the standard Brawler, which to be honest is pretty awful. So, on to the structure.
Hybrid fighter|striker, Hybrid Talent for Brawler style, Monk MC for MUS. The goal of this is to still do the brawler thing, and picking up MUS allows for a +3 unarmed weapon that I can use if either of my hands are free. Which means I can grab one thing and still be able to hit something else with Grappling Strike. Prior experience with brawlers has made me fairly hesitant to give up that flexibility, especially as Grappling Strike provides a significant benefit in that it's basically built-in Combat Superiority that I lost by going Hybrid Fighter.
So, the question then becomes what to hybrid the fighter with. The three choices I see as viable are rogue, executioner, and blackguard. Monk just doesn't work - the MC is vastly better than the hybrid - and vampires, well, they're just kindof bad, and I can't afford high Cha so all their class features suck.
Executioner seems to offer the least. Sure, it's got its striker bonus for my MBAs, but I don't use MBAs enough for that to help. Either I make an executioner-boosted attack on my turn, and don't mark, or I make a fighter attack and don't get the striker bonus and hope they violate the mark so I get the striker bonus then. Bottom line is it's one/round, at most, and there's nothing really interesting about MBA. Overall it may be effective, but it'd be pretty dull.
Blackguard has some interesting features. First off, hybrid blackguard lets me get access to the entire Paladin at-will list, without needing to be human, so that has a lot of potential. Going Cha-only isn't feasible, but the Str/Cha races are fun and an 18/18 makes for a quite respectable striker damage bonus. Additionally, AC isn't a problem, as I'd have normal Fighter armor proficiencies without needing Hybrid Talent. For power selection, there are a few compelling options. One is Ardent Strike, which gets me back much of my defenderness while still doing high damage. Power of Strife is a rather potent boost here in that regard. There's also the possiblity of getting Valiant Strike as a high-accuracy MBA that carries the full striker bonus. The paladin dailies and utilities are also compelling, as many of them offer increased damage and useful effects. Overall this is a quite solid approach, I think.
Rogue, though, is where I think the real money likely is. With an additional feat paid to the taxman, I can SA through MUS and use MUS with any rogue power that requires a light blade. Which means I can use Riposte Strike. Oh, now we're talking. Standard tactics would be to pick a hopefully-isolated target (preferably artillery or controller), grab it, pin it, and then start beating it in the face. Its choices are pretty grim. It can attack me, at which case I get a second attack per round with full modifiers and Sneak Attack. If I play my cards right, it won't be in range to attack anyone else in melee, which means I'll get an OA if it tries to attack anyone else. I don't get SA on it, sadly, but it's still another punch to the face. It can try to break free and run away, but in order to do that it has to escape first (not likely) and then try to get away while prone, which will provoke an OA which means Grappling Strike will prevent it from doing so, and it loses its turn. Given the amount of feat taxes this requires (three for just the basic package, then the things everyone has to get) and then the feats that brawler needs, this puts this solidly in the Paragon-level feat count, but that's okay to me. On top of all this, its secondary stat is Dex, which is the favored stat for the brawler-related riders, like Crushing Pin. Rogue definitely seems to have a ton of potential, and could be lots of fun.
As far as paragon path, there seem to be some options. For the rogue, I'm actually liking the idea of Shock Trooper. It alone boosts MUS up to d10, or d12 if I buy into Improved MUS. I like the idea of using a d12 damage die for rogue powers, personally. The rest of the path is solid as well, with some good powers and the feature has the right stat component. Beyond that, the rest of the Fighter and Rogue standbys are solid. Kensei, etc. Plenty to choose from.
Thoughts?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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13 months ago ::
May 30, 2012 - 2:48PM
#79
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Eh, could be worse. I played one recently with three monsters that had an aura 3 that if you started in it you got dazed. Oh, and the room was a 5x8. Fortunately I managed to convince the DM to call the fight once we bloodied the main target since the module had been running for over seven hours, but had we played it straight it would have been mind-numbing.
For an explanation of why it had been running over seven hours, I could go into an actual example of a weak hybrid. An annoyingly bad hybrid, that had the longest turns I have ever seen of anything ever.
The guy who had a zillion animal companions? I wanted to kill him. Badly.
I've found a lot to like in my monk/cleric hybrid. Having the monk's movement techniques are really great for being mobile and getting to party members who find themselves in need of healing way across the map.
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