|
13 months ago ::
May 28, 2012 - 6:08AM
#41
|
|
|
Not that it matters, but if I were running the Kobolds I would have had them all do something other than attack. Realistically, in a group of 40 to 1, not everyone is going to do the same thing. Some might try to get the Whelps out of the way, while the others form up into a defensive position, while some others rush forward to stop the intruder from advancing. Also, if they're all just sitting around in the common room, chances are good that they're not really going to be "battle-ready" out of the gate. But, I don't suppose there's one "right" or "wrong" way to run a group of monsters.
Just remember, also, that Advantage/Disadvantage cancel each other out. So, while the Kobolds have advantage against a foe that they outnumber, they also have Disadvantage if they fall within a torch's (or any other light giving effect's) "bright light" radius. In that case, they only roll 1d20 as normal.
I wonder, though, if the Advantage/Disadvantage rule is the problem or if it's that there were just too many enemies to keep track of. IMO, 40 attack rolls would be just too many to make at once with or without Advantage/Disadvantage.
Well, according to the map included with the adventure this room has 25 squares and 40 kobolds. I don't think they exactly have many tactical options when they are stacked in there like a wood pile.
|
|
|
|
13 months ago ::
May 28, 2012 - 6:27AM
#42
|
Date Joined:
Apr 26, 2012
|
Well, according to the map included with the adventure this room has 25 squares and 40 kobolds. I don't think they exactly have many tactical options when they are stacked in there like a wood pile.
Room 6 contains 19 10' x 10' squares. That's 76 squares at 5' each.
|
|
|
|
13 months ago ::
May 28, 2012 - 10:28AM
#43
|
|
|
My bad. Didn't realize squares are 10x10 since I'm used to 5x5. I'll make sure to check the legend next time. Lol.
|
|
|
|
13 months ago ::
May 28, 2012 - 10:36AM
#44
|
Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2011
|
i think the problem is that everybody is treating every-single-room like a small scale encounter. there are other ways to deal with 40 kobolds than to run in there and start hacking. easiest might be to try to lure them out, or maybe smoke them out? i heard of one group suffocating them with a brush fire.
|
|
|
|
13 months ago ::
May 28, 2012 - 11:06AM
#45
|
Date Joined:
May 28, 2012
|
@tpamwow
Just make it +5 and you'll be ok.
I didn't experience this until the 18 rats. Fortunately the wizard used burning hands after round one.
I ran a quick adventure of my own design. The wizard used burning hands on some Goblins and took 9 of them out in one round.
I saw the +5 somewhere else. I'm lazy. Could you tell me how you came to that average? I keep jumping around the forums and don't want to stop to figure it out.
It's based on the more or less offset bell curve that's made when you are rolling the d20 twice, and picking just one result. The probability scales in a way where for the majority of the middle results, it sort of has an effective '+5 bonus' scaled into it.
I don't remember the full numbers off hand, myself, so this is me more or less just recalling as well as I can.
The problem is that the benefit of advantage varies depending on the original to-hit number. If the original to-hit number was 10, then a +5 is about right. If the original to-hit number was 15 (more likely) then we're talking about +4, and if it is 18 we're talking more about +3. Here is a graph showing the relationship (scroll down to the green-yellow graph) that I set up for a game I was working on a while back. Sticking with a straight +5 is actually making Advantage even MORE powerful than it already is.
|
|
|
|
13 months ago ::
May 28, 2012 - 12:26PM
#46
|
Date Joined:
Dec 17, 2006
|
Suggestion from Mike Mearls on Tweeter 6 mintues ago:
Unlike Mike Mearls, I do not have 40 d20s. So that means I have to roll 40 attacks three at a time (while counting which attack I'm on), calling out the hits as they come up, then have the player tell me how many hits that was (in my case, 7), then roll the difference between that and the original number.
In the case of my 40 kobold scenario, that has me make 25 rolls, which isn't a whole lot better than the 27 I balked at.
Disclaimer: I know that a battle involving 40 anythings is a rare and intense event for 1st-level characters, but in a game where people end up having multiple attacks, hirelings & henchmen, and "fighting more and more orcs", I can only see this getting worse and worse as the game goes on.
|
|
|
|
13 months ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 6:47AM
#47
|
Date Joined:
Apr 26, 2012
|
Unlike Mike Mearls, I do not have 40 d20s. So that means I have to roll 40 attacks three at a time (while counting which attack I'm on), calling out the hits as they come up, then have the player tell me how many hits that was (in my case, 7), then roll the difference between that and the original number.
You make a good point. The advantage/disadvantage system, IMO, is pretty cool. But that doesn't mean it couldn't stand to be tweaked a little. I recently ran my first playtest (last night, in fact) and, though I ran it a little differently (one of the Kobolds from outside the cave ran in to warn everyone, which put them on their guard and brought most of the battle into the corridors) there were still large numbers of enemies with either advantage or disadvantage at any given time.
I handled it by having only a limited number of enemies attacking each round. Some were hidden around corners, some performed Dodges, and others readied actions. I had a few Kobolds dedicated to ranged combat, and a couple of "squads" that engaged in melee. It worked out, but was still pretty intense. Honestly, I think if the PCs had been a little more stealthy and used their skills a bit more often, most of the confusion could have been avoided, but hindsight is 20/20, they say.
|
|
|
|
13 months ago ::
May 29, 2012 - 6:58AM
#48
|
Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2007
|
The fighter burst into a room of 40 (!!) kobolds? Why are you bothering to roll dice?
Script the scene or give the fighter a chance to creatively escape. Otherwise, the fighter is simply dead.
Agreed; this is basically what I would have posted. ANY time you have a group of 40, you're going to be rolling a zillion dice if you choose to roll dice. I think the point of the playtest is to see how DMs handle that situation. I wouldn't have rolled 40 attacks.
|
|
|
|
13 months ago ::
Jun 04, 2012 - 4:06PM
#49
|
Date Joined:
Oct 22, 2002
|
Really, though, there should be a specific rule for situations like this. The encounter with the eighteen rats is downright ridiculous: you might roll up to 36d20 to deal a maximum of 18 points of damage! There should be a well-defined way to combine creatures' attacks in a swarmish fashion. Group them up and make a single attack roll for each group, dealing some multiple of the basic creature's damage (and half that on a miss)?
Some things to consider
Show
|
|
|
|
13 months ago ::
Jun 05, 2012 - 10:08AM
#50
|
Date Joined:
May 27, 2012
|
I'm with what many people have posted: very small creatures like rats should be represented as a swarm, with a simple mechanic to treat the swarm as a single creature. A couple rules can keep this simple: normal weapon attacks aren't very useful, area effect spells are very useful, fire can repel or block swarm, and so on.
Cheers,
stouty
|
|
|
Mike Mearls 
