I really want to run a 3.5 campaign and have everyone roll their characters 3d6 straight down no subs, no rerolls.
Needless to say everyone is going to be pretty weak, any tips on having a campagin that can have enough alternate ways to solve it if you don't have the strongest combat ready party?
I'm normally someone who comes down on people for having stats that are too good but here it looks like you should run into the opposite problem. I'll strongly advise AGAINST doing it if you want to have anything that resembles a "normal" game. Now maybe you just want the random ability scores and in that case I'd let you roll those 3d6 stats in order but then I'd figure out its point buy equivalent (low scores are just counted at -1 per point under 8) and remove that many points from a normal PB and then divide the remain points evenly between the six abilities with maybe a few outliers. If you roll a 15,13,10,8,11,6 that's a PBe of 16 and with my normal PB of 28 this would mean 12 unused points which divide six ways for two buy points in each ability for +1 on the 15 and 13 (you don't get enough to push past the 14) and +2 for everything else.
PS. You should delete one of your two threads before it gets posted to because you don't really need two copies of this.
There are some things you can point your players to that will help them manage.
Warlock (Complete Arcane) can get by with terrible ability scores. They prefer a good cha, for save DCs, but have many invokations that don't allow saves. They prefer good con, for HP, but they're not made to be up close to enemies anyway. They prefer good dex, for ranged touch attacks, but touch AC tends to stay low.
Wild shape, especially using master of many forms (Complete Adventurer) can almost completely mitigate poor physical ability scores.
Animal companion, or some other means of gaining a minion, can provide a decent melee presence even if the characters themselves can't. If you allow the wild cohort feat, every party member can have an animal companion irrespective of class.
Con is probably the hardest ability to have a bad score in. Mongrelfolk (Races of Destiny) have a +4 racial bonus to con for +0 LA. There are 3 +0 LA templates that provide +2 con, arctic (dragon 306, p61), dragonborn of Bahamut (Races of the Dragon), and proto-creature (Bestiary of Krynn). Taking all of those gives +4 str, -2 dex, +10 con, -4 int, -10 cha.
Necropolitan (Libris Mortis) is another way to deal with low con. It's a +0 LA template that makes you undead. It increases all your hit dice to d12s, as you would expect. Depending on your class, that can average out to being as good as an 18 con.
We had this problem all the time in 1ed. What you have to accept as DM is that you cannot throw those tough monsters on the party. Especially in 3.5 where everything is buffed to the max, you cannot expect the CR rating to work. What however makes this type of play fun is that some of the weaker monsters get to show their strengths. You and your players actually begin to understand how some monsters survive against the usual people that they encounter.
What you also will learn is that your players can be bastards. You will hear the whining that caused all the little gratuities (some of which are mentioned by those above), which are so prevalent in the modern games, to come about. "My strength sucks, and I wanted to play a fighter." "What good is it to have Charisma as my highest ability score?" "How can I survive with a three Con?"
Note however that the modern system (4d6 take the highest three) can also generate weak characters, but it does make the low end less common. You might want to default there (although keep them in the order rolled).
The reason it worked in 1e was because the player was seen as playing the system, instead of playing A singular character. You rolled and saw if you got lucky this run (much like rolling in any board game, or indeed on any damage roll), and if you didn't your options were limited and you likely died. Over time, knowledge, cleverness, and luck would contribute to create a stable character that survived and thrived under this sort of Gygaxian selection (survival of the luckiest and savviest). This was the assumption behind the game.
By 3e, setting aside how TerishD loves to opine how much he hates it in every post, the assumption had changed. People came to the table with a concept already in mind, and they wanted the game to allow them to reflect it. This is one of the reasons 3e is so flexible: it aimed to capture every possible concept that one would find as a heroic fantasy adventurer. It tried to avoid saying "you can't do that". The idea was to realize concepts, not play a Darwinian game of attrition. Thus, forced randomness was phased out. Already the 4d6 drop lowest system was in use as standard, and the transition to fewer race restrictions was quite clear even by 2e.
The shift towards point buy came when Wizards moved towards reducing interparty disparity. The balance that matters most is that between the players: if pure luck can mean one gets flat 18s and the other flat 12s then the system allows for conflict and jealousy between players. Point buy bypasses this problem; the fact that it tends to create tailored ability score arrays is secondary to this (and how you sell the system to a lone player rather than a group). The big thing is that both aspects of point buy reduce complaints - you get to play the concept you had in mind rather than the concept the dice told you, and you got the same start position as everyone else at the table.
If you want to do 3d6-straight-down, you have to do so for good reasons, and understand why the system was retired. The decision is yours, but make it an informed one.
If, for instance, you want to keep that random aspect of not knowing what race or class you were playing, bit want to avoid the problems described above, just draw your race and class from a deck and use point buy to work with that concept. If you want lower power, use a low point buy. You have options to keep some of the good of the old, but without keeping the problems that led to change in the first place.
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
The reason it worked in 1e was because the player was seen as playing the system, instead of playing A singular character.
The reason it worked was because the player understood that he was nothing more than some fool who decided to become a hero. We went into the game understanding that we were the underdog, and that the humanoid races huddled behind their fortifications because monsters were tough. Winning a victory even over a couple of kobolds was considered a stunt worthy of celebration.
That is all gone from the present game. Computer games have players used to wiping out hordes of monsters. Players want to play the ultimate hero. 3ed, especially with the expansion books, caters to that. I will accept that there is fun there, but it is not the fun my friends and I look for in the game. Luckily, again, 3ed can be scaled back to play a more conservative game. sleap and his friends should thus be able to have fun (lots of fun) playing in a more historic context, although he has to be aware that the books are not really aimed for such a game, so he will need to scale back challenges as well.
That is all gone from the present game. Computer games have players used to wiping out hordes of monsters. Players want to play the ultimate hero. 3ed, especially with the expansion books, caters to that. I will accept that there is fun there, but it is not the fun my friends and I look for in the game.
People have admired epic heroes wading through armies of foes or battling foes of dreadful power for millenia, computers just make some of it easier to run. But you're essentially correct when you say that that isn't the kind of fun for which you're looking, since the important part is about it being the kind of game you want to play.
If you want to be a fiery-haired dragonslaying warrior princess with a literally divine bloodline whose wyrm-slaughtering capabilities bear only the vaguest resemblance to anything that would normally be considered human, there's a style and level of the game for you. If you prefer to play Dogface the pox-ridden dirt farmer barely surviving as he tries to fend off the vague disinterest of a couple of degenerate lizardman with pointy sticks, there's also a style and level of the game for you. And there's a lot of variety in the middle...
As for sleap's original question, I'd say that a lot of it depends on simply thinking of the campaign as more like a real world and less like a stage for conducting combats. Put yourself (as a person normally living in the real world) in the place of the characters and think about what you would see and how you would react, including as much support for the normal function of the world as possible.
For example, if the description of a mine tunnel mentions the wooden beams that support it instead of just describing it as "a mine tunnel" the players are naturally nudged towards thinking of those beams when they try to come up with a solution, and simply getting into the habit of paying attention to the world leads to them more frequently looking at their surroundings for new options when a problem arises. Likewise, if important local figures are mentioned by townfolk, or the stormy clouds looming on the horizon bear mentioning, the players are more inclined to enlist the aid of dignitaries in settling a heated dispute, or wait for the cover of heavy rain in order to sneak into that goblin camp.
As some computer games do, you can also think up a few different solution paths for any given problem by using a few common character archetypes. How can a fighter, a mage, or a sneak thief solve this problem? What about a charming diplomat? Include support for those example solutions in the design of the campaign or adventure, along with ways to nudge the players towards them if they're floundering on their own. Obviously, the players can still come up with their own ideas, but it's nice to have a fallback.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Another reason it worked in 1st and even 2nd editions was because ability scores often didn't mean all that much unless they were really high or really low. IIRC you needed to get STR 16 before you started to see any kind of bonus from that and in 3e you get a more bonus from just STR 12.
I am starting a campaign for my group that uses the 25 point buy system. The reason for this is because we are trying to play something different than a standard 3.5 campaign. Keeping the low stats in mind, you have to realize how using a low stat generator will impact the rest of your game. For instance, I am not planning on having a city with more than say 3000 people in my "kingdom". I will be selecting a lot more of the not so common monsters for the players to fight. In general, the players will be starting with equipment that is less than what is usually expected. The rogue, at this point, will be starting with Wicker Armor that can be found in the Arms and Equipment guide. Pretty much every aspect of the game has to be scaled back to allow for the lower requisites.
At first, some of my players were hesitant about how the game will be played out. After explaining how everything is going to be scaled back, most of the players seem to be very interested in how the campaign will play out. Another aspect that I am trying to introduce is how prized normal and masterwork equipment will be, which should prove to be pretty interesting all by itself. In my case, the low population "metropolis" will not allow for items such as platemail armor to be a common item. The highest level NPCs in the area will be no higher than probably 6th or 7th level.
What it all comes down to is that the players and yourself are having fun. In the end, it is a game. What is the point in playing if you aren't having fun.
I am starting a campaign for my group that uses the 25 point buy system. The reason for this is because we are trying to play something different than a standard 3.5 campaign. Keeping the low stats in mind, you have to realize how using a low stat generator will impact the rest of your game. For instance, I am not planning on having a city with more than say 3000 people in my "kingdom". I will be selecting a lot more of the not so common monsters for the players to fight. In general, the players will be starting with equipment that is less than what is usually expected. The rogue, at this point, will be starting with Wicker Armor that can be found in the Arms and Equipment guide. Pretty much every aspect of the game has to be scaled back to allow for the lower requisites.
At first, some of my players were hesitant about how the game will be played out. After explaining how everything is going to be scaled back, most of the players seem to be very interested in how the campaign will play out. Another aspect that I am trying to introduce is how prized normal and masterwork equipment will be, which should prove to be pretty interesting all by itself. In my case, the low population "metropolis" will not allow for items such as platemail armor to be a common item. The highest level NPCs in the area will be no higher than probably 6th or 7th level.
What it all comes down to is that the players and yourself are having fun. In the end, it is a game. What is the point in playing if you aren't having fun.
I've really enjoyed the low stat characters because as a DM i can concentrate more on making the adventure interesting, rather then always choosing encounters based on arbitration and challenge least the players walk through the adventure. The only problem is it can be taken too far, and just like the powergamers, only in reverse.
Many clases that are gear dependant for instance will suffer in a low level, low gear, low magical item game, at last they loose more then other classes. Remember that class balance is done in part by gear. I have found from expereince that the wealth by level chart in the book is the best guideline overall, and not to deviate too far from it
