It's pretty clear cut that the dwarf, elf, and halfling get some cool racial abilities, but the human looks like he got the shaft.  Humans don't see to get any bonus feat or skill points or skill bonuses, or anything.  They appear to be a plain jane, dull race like they were back in 2nd edition.  No one played humans then and if my assumptions are correct and they did get screwed no one will play them now.  3rd, 3.5, 4th and Paizo all did something to address this, I hope this isn't an oversight.  

May 24, 2012 -- 12:44PM, Xallin wrote:

It's pretty clear cut that the dwarf, elf, and halfling get some cool racial abilities, but the human looks like he got the shaft.  Humans don't see to get any bonus feat or skill points or skill bonuses, or anything.  They appear to be a plain jane, dull race like they were back in 2nd edition.  No one played humans then and if my assumptions are correct and they did get screwed no one will play them now.  3rd, 3.5, 4th and Paizo all did something to address this, I hope this isn't an oversight.  

Well they really should think about something to make humans interesting - my favourite race/class combo (human/fighter) looks really lame... humans haven't been so dull for a long long time...

The only thing I was able to notice was their stats were higher than everyone elses. Maybe they get additional stat points 

May 24, 2012 -- 1:22PM, FrozenTime wrote:

The only thing I was able to notice was their stats were higher than everyone elses. Maybe they get additional stat points 

Stil kinda lame.  Especially cause my group rolls for Stats, we don't use point buy.  Humans are a dull, blank peice of paper, and may as well be removed from the game if they don't do something to make them intresting.

May 24, 2012 -- 1:27PM, ShinQuickMan wrote:

EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING! YOU SIR WIN THIS THREAD!

May 24, 2012 -- 1:22PM, FrozenTime wrote:

The only thing I was able to notice was their stats were higher than everyone elses. Maybe they get additional stat points 

That would be the only way I can see at this point that Humans would be worth taking, and even then I don't think it would be enough, as was mentioned above.

And before anyone says it: If someone comes on here and says "play a Human because you want to," I will hunt you down and destroy everything you love. 

May 24, 2012 -- 1:25PM, Xallin wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:22PM, FrozenTime wrote:

The only thing I was able to notice was their stats were higher than everyone elses. Maybe they get additional stat points 

Stil kinda lame.  Especially cause my group rolls for Stats, we don't use point buy.  Humans are a dull, blank peice of paper, and may as well be removed from the game if they don't do something to make them intresting.

What ever happened to D&D being a role- (verses roll-) playing game?

+1 to all abilities seems moderately powerful over time.  We'll see with play testing.

May 24, 2012 -- 1:36PM, Litigation wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:22PM, FrozenTime wrote:

The only thing I was able to notice was their stats were higher than everyone elses. Maybe they get additional stat points 

That would be the only way I can see at this point that Humans would be worth taking, and even then I don't think it would be enough, as was mentioned above.

And before anyone says it: If someone comes on here and says "play a Human because you want to," I will hunt you down and destroy everything you love. 

I agree with you.  I will help you hunt down any one that says play a human because you want to.  Further more why would you want to if they are lame.  You ARE a human after all and playing a dwarf, elf, half orc, ect is more intresting as you are a human.  3rd, and 4th make humans a viable race to play and despite being a human you get some cool perk for being on that makes them worth playing over their other more colorful and intresting counter parts.

May 24, 2012 -- 1:40PM, abchurch wrote:

What ever happened to D&D being a role- (verses roll-) playing game?

What's with these morons who think good math/design somehow inhibits roleplaying?

+1 to all abilities seems like a very human sort of bonus, and I don't think it sucks at all.  Humans are supposed to be the most flexible and adaptable race, and with ability scores not improving as much in the long term, those extra points will turn out to be a bigger deal than you might think.

May 24, 2012 -- 1:45PM, Gunthar wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:40PM, abchurch wrote:

What ever happened to D&D being a role- (verses roll-) playing game?

What's with these morons who think good math/design somehow inhibits roleplaying?

Never got that myself.  Its like using feet instead of squares.  I have been playing since 2nd edition, and was happy when things changed from 30 feet to 6 squares.  It made targeting with AoE spells easier, as well as calculating ranged attack distance.  Good math design makes the game less number crunchy and more enjoyable for the role playing aspect, if you ask me.

May 24, 2012 -- 1:45PM, Gunthar wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:40PM, abchurch wrote:

What ever happened to D&D being a role- (verses roll-) playing game?

What's with these morons who think good math/design somehow inhibits roleplaying?

Never got that myself.  Its like using feet instead of squares.  I have been playing since 2nd edition, and was happy when things changed from 30 feet to 6 squares.  It made targeting with AoE spells easier, as well as calculating ranged attack distance.  Good math design makes the game less number crunchy and more enjoyable for the role playing aspect, if you ask me.

Humans are as smart as elves, as durable as dwarves, as quick as halfings and wiser, stronger and more charismatic too?

May 24, 2012 -- 1:47PM, Andrelai wrote:

+1 to all abilities seems like a very human sort of bonus, and I don't think it sucks at all.  Humans are supposed to be the most flexible and adaptable race, and with ability scores not improving as much in the long term, those extra points will turn out to be a bigger deal than you might think.

A plus one or 2 to a stat would be a boon.  I'd like to point out I said that extra skill points would be lame as most people I know don't use a point buy system to generate stats.

May 24, 2012 -- 1:50PM, Electricbee wrote:

Humans are as smart as elves, as durable as dwarves, as quick as halfings and wiser, stronger and more charismatic too?

Well, one's a pointy-eared, wimpy, tree-hugging freak, another's a stumpy, drunken grump and the third's a lazy shrimp who eats and smokes too much.


So yeah.

May 24, 2012 -- 1:53PM, Gunthar wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:50PM, Electricbee wrote:

Humans are as smart as elves, as durable as dwarves, as quick as halfings and wiser, stronger and more charismatic too?

Well, one's a pointy-eared, wimpy, tree-hugging freak, another's a stumpy, drunken grump and the third's a lazy shrimp who eats and smokes too much.


So yeah.

Make fun of the elves and halfings all you want, but you leave my Dwarves alone! lol

May 24, 2012 -- 1:45PM, Gunthar wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:40PM, abchurch wrote:

What ever happened to D&D being a role- (verses roll-) playing game?

What's with these morons who think good math/design somehow inhibits roleplaying?

Well said.

May 24, 2012 -- 1:51PM, Xallin wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:47PM, Andrelai wrote:

+1 to all abilities seems like a very human sort of bonus, and I don't think it sucks at all.  Humans are supposed to be the most flexible and adaptable race, and with ability scores not improving as much in the long term, those extra points will turn out to be a bigger deal than you might think.

A plus one or 2 to a stat would be a boon.  I'd like to point out I said that extra skill points would be lame as most people I know don't use a point buy system to generate stats.

Not that I support rolling stats, but ...

Couldn't you just roll the stats then add the point(s) somewhere?

May 24, 2012 -- 1:45PM, Gunthar wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:40PM, abchurch wrote:

What ever happened to D&D being a role- (verses roll-) playing game?

What's with these morons who think good math/design somehow inhibits roleplaying?

What's with these people who think name calling is appropriate or even neccesary when discussing a game where a bunch of dudes or dudettes sit around a table and pretend to be wizards and knights and shiz?

May 24, 2012 -- 1:59PM, Salla wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:51PM, Xallin wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:47PM, Andrelai wrote:

+1 to all abilities seems like a very human sort of bonus, and I don't think it sucks at all.  Humans are supposed to be the most flexible and adaptable race, and with ability scores not improving as much in the long term, those extra points will turn out to be a bigger deal than you might think.

A plus one or 2 to a stat would be a boon.  I'd like to point out I said that extra skill points would be lame as most people I know don't use a point buy system to generate stats.

Not that I support rolling stats, but ...

Couldn't you just roll the stats then add the point(s) somewhere?

I suppose you could, and its better than a kick in the teeth but still not as enticing as dark vision, or a re-roll.  Extra feat was always an awesome bonus.

They would be really tough if they would get +1 to all ability scores, but I seriously doubt that.

Since stats cap at 20, wouldn't +1 on everything account for something?

May 24, 2012 -- 2:49PM, ShinQuickMan wrote:

Since stats cap at 20, wouldn't +1 on everything account for something?

where did you read that stats cap at 20?

May 24, 2012 -- 2:01PM, NumberOneTheLarch wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:45PM, Gunthar wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:40PM, abchurch wrote:

What ever happened to D&D being a role- (verses roll-) playing game?

What's with these morons who think good math/design somehow inhibits roleplaying?

What's with these people who think name calling is appropriate or even neccesary when discussing a game where a bunch of dudes or dudettes sit around a table and pretend to be wizards and knights and shiz?

This. ^^


On topic: What would be an example of a well done human race?


o Stat bonus? Obviously not (enough)? Done before.

o Skill bonus? Obviously not (enough)? Done before.

o A write-up with strange and exciting special abilities? Maybe, but wouldn't we lose the non-exotic standard race by that? Of course the classical counter is flexibility, adaptibility in racial powers/feats/multiclassing. Done before.

So how would you do it?            

It does seem like Humans are lackluster.  Sure, they're suppose to be middle ground but...so far they are bland.  If they only get a +1 to stats I mean it makes sense because of how Next seems to be set in terms of defenses it's equivalent to the +1 defense bonus they get now in 4e.  A +1 to those stats I think from my understanding of the rules in terms of being attacked, saving throws, etc, would give them a little extra edge over other races.  Though it does make me think that most of the max builds will be based on a human race because of the extra +1 to everything.

Nuorn-
A skill bonus could be nice, or some such.  Just because it's been done before doesn't make it anathema to being done again.  I mean look at the Dwarves and Elves, they keep the same basic traits from edition to edition pretty much.  Or at least from 4th to Next.  

Based on the stat blocks in the sample characters, it looks like Humans get a +1 to all abilities and then an additional +2 to an ability of their choice.  That seems pretty good to me.

Nuorn

  I think 4th ed handled it well, a feat, a skill bonus, and a def bonus.  I think Pathfinder hit the nail on the head as well with a +2 to one stat and a feat and skill bonus.  Those things really sell the idea of human diversity.  As far as new ideas, I always though breaking humans down into sub groups would be cool. (Aisan, Egyptian, African, ect for example) and haveing each ethnicity gain different racial bonuses.  That also sells the idea of diversity, and is part of what makes the human race so cool. 

May 24, 2012 -- 3:37PM, Xallin wrote:

Nuorn

  I think 4th ed handled it well, a feat, a skill bonus, and a def bonus.  I think Pathfinder hit the nail on the head as well with a +2 to one stat and a feat and skill bonus.  Those things really sell the idea of human diversity.  As far as new ideas, I always though breaking humans down into sub groups would be cool. (Aisan, Egyptian, African, ect for example) and haveing each ethnicity gain different racial bonuses.  That also sells the idea of diversity, and is part of what makes the human race so cool. 

LOL! Racisim problems really fast.

Bah, 'umies needed to get knocked down a few pegs...

Unfrotunatly that's true.  It's too bad we live in a world full of bigots and haters.

May 24, 2012 -- 3:41PM, Xallin wrote:

Unfrotunatly that's true.  It's too bad we live in a world full of bigots and haters.

Asian +dex or Int?
African +str or con?
Italian +cha? ;-) hehe

May 24, 2012 -- 3:42PM, DaMidWestNinja wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 3:41PM, Xallin wrote:

Unfrotunatly that's true.  It's too bad we live in a world full of bigots and haters.

Asian +dex or Int?
African +str or con?
Italian +cha? ;-) hehe

I was thinking less stat bonus but weapon or armor or skill bonus.

May 24, 2012 -- 3:47PM, Xallin wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 3:42PM, DaMidWestNinja wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 3:41PM, Xallin wrote:

Unfrotunatly that's true.  It's too bad we live in a world full of bigots and haters.

Asian +dex or Int?
African +str or con?
Italian +cha? ;-) hehe

I was thinking less stat bonus but weapon or armor or skill bonus.

Oh! Thats a neat idea .  I was just goofin around. ;-)

May 24, 2012 -- 3:35PM, Lux- wrote:

Based on the stat blocks in the sample characters, it looks like Humans get a +1 to all abilities and then an additional +2 to an ability of their choice.  That seems pretty good to me.

I'm actually thinking that "+2" is just an additional +1 to the favored stat of their class (it appears all classes give a +1 to their "main") stat.  So for the cleric 18 wisdom it was 15 from the array, +1 for general human bonus, +1 for class, +1 more for human class bonus. 

May 24, 2012 -- 3:49PM, DaMidWestNinja wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 3:47PM, Xallin wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 3:42PM, DaMidWestNinja wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 3:41PM, Xallin wrote:

Unfrotunatly that's true.  It's too bad we live in a world full of bigots and haters.

Asian +dex or Int?
African +str or con?
Italian +cha? ;-) hehe

I was thinking less stat bonus but weapon or armor or skill bonus.

Oh! Thats a neat idea .  I was just goofin around. ;-)

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic.

May 24, 2012 -- 3:51PM, Xallin wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 3:49PM, DaMidWestNinja wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 3:47PM, Xallin wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 3:42PM, DaMidWestNinja wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 3:41PM, Xallin wrote:

Unfrotunatly that's true.  It's too bad we live in a world full of bigots and haters.

Asian +dex or Int?
African +str or con?
Italian +cha? ;-) hehe

I was thinking less stat bonus but weapon or armor or skill bonus.

Oh! Thats a neat idea .  I was just goofin around. ;-)

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic.

Totally not sarcastic when saying it was a good idea, with like different weapon profs. or skills and stuff. Could even just call them like Hill people, or Desert people or islander. Don't have to talk about their looks. Keep it totally PC that way.

May 24, 2012 -- 3:54PM, DaMidWestNinja wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 3:51PM, Xallin wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 3:49PM, DaMidWestNinja wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 3:47PM, Xallin wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 3:42PM, DaMidWestNinja wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 3:41PM, Xallin wrote:

Unfrotunatly that's true.  It's too bad we live in a world full of bigots and haters.

Asian +dex or Int?
African +str or con?
Italian +cha? ;-) hehe

I was thinking less stat bonus but weapon or armor or skill bonus.

Oh! Thats a neat idea .  I was just goofin around. ;-)

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic.

Totally not sarcastic when saying it was a good idea, with like different weapon profs. or skills and stuff. Could even just call them like Hill people, or Desert people or islander. Don't have to talk about their looks. Keep it totally PC that way.

Its something Paizo toyed around with but didn't do anything with aside from description and a home land.  They did a really good job at fleshing these people's cultures and stuff out.  Now we just add some actual game mechanic stuff to add to the fluff, (I like fluff for the record) and you would have some cool human diversity.  Then let the player add a +2 to ANY one stat they want. 

 

Haven't the past few editions gotten at something like that with regional backgrounds? Like +some to a skill, or making something a class skill, or random other bonuses? Not as directly bundled into the race as subrace options are, but playing around in the same area.

They certainly aren't given much from what I've seen. Not sure how I feel about it. In my experience people don't pick things to play based on anything but their idea of what they want to play, which is why humans have been the most popular race across all editions in my experience. However, I would like some unique elements as well, just to give em a little oompf.

May 24, 2012 -- 2:52PM, Xallin wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 2:49PM, ShinQuickMan wrote:

Since stats cap at 20, wouldn't +1 on everything account for something?

where did you read that stats cap at 20?

Read page 3 in "How to Play", under Ability Scores.

19 point buy, starting with 10/10/10/10/10/8, same table as 4th with +1 for your main attribute and the human +1 to all seems to fit.

Here's my write up on a human stat block:

Humans

• +1 to all ability scores: Humans are able to survive in a wide variety of climates and so their bodies are best suited to adapting to the local conditions.
• Versatile: Humans get an additional +1 to their first level class’s favoured ability score.
• Speed: Humans have a base speed of 30 feet.
• Savings: Humans start level 1 with an extra 90gp.
• Languages: Common.

Thanyou to the person who worked out how the human stat blocks worked. It was driving me crazy.

Flavourwise you don't get much, but given fighters and clerics seem to start with around 160gp while wizards and rogues only start with 75gp, the bonuses are actually mechanically sound. I typically look for the most flavour for humans in the campaign setting anyway.

May 24, 2012 -- 12:44PM, Xallin wrote:

It's pretty clear cut that the dwarf, elf, and halfling get some cool racial abilities, but the human looks like he got the shaft.  Humans don't see to get any bonus feat or skill points or skill bonuses, or anything.  They appear to be a plain jane, dull race like they were back in 2nd edition.  No one played humans then and if my assumptions are correct and they did get screwed no one will play them now.  3rd, 3.5, 4th and Paizo all did something to address this, I hope this isn't an oversight.  

Wow.


Humans are brokenly good.


They get plus one to every ability.


But all the other races get nothing.



What would I rather have? +1 to everything or else stare at shadows?         Guess which I pick.




Humans rule. I would never play any other race again.        

The other races do get bonuses, dont they?  Anyway, humans may be bland, but they don't suck.  Think of it this way, how many powegamers would rush to play a human in 4E, 3.5, or Pathfinder if they got a +1 to all stats and then another +1 to their class's main stat?  Yeah, that's what I thought.

May 25, 2012 -- 7:09AM, talok55 wrote:

The other races do get bonuses, dont they?  Anyway, humans may be bland, but they don't suck.  Think of it this way, how many powegamers would rush to play a human in 4E, 3.5, or Pathfinder if they got a +1 to all stats and then another +1 to their class's main stat?  Yeah, that's what I thought.

It doesn't say anywhere but I believe Dwarves get +1 Strength, halflings get +1 dex and elves get +1 int 

May 25, 2012 -- 7:09AM, talok55 wrote:

The other races do get bonuses, dont they?  Anyway, humans may be bland, but they don't suck.  Think of it this way, how many powegamers would rush to play a human in 4E, 3.5, or Pathfinder if they got a +1 to all stats and then another +1 to their class's main stat?  Yeah, that's what I thought.

I think it all depends on what the other races get for bonuses as well.  I mean I can't really see them dropping the elves dex bonus, or the dwarves con bonus.  (Maybe they have I haven't done the math)  Extra money at level 1 is kinda a stupid perk if you ask me, sure you can get some better gear but I don't know it kinda feels phoned in.

May 25, 2012 -- 7:09AM, talok55 wrote:

The other races do get bonuses, dont they?  Anyway, humans may be bland, but they don't suck.  Think of it this way, how many powegamers would rush to play a human in 4E, 3.5, or Pathfinder if they got a +1 to all stats and then another +1 to their class's main stat?  Yeah, that's what I thought.

No, according to this play test, none of the races got any racial bonus, except human.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

May 25, 2012 -- 7:18AM, Haldrik wrote:

May 25, 2012 -- 7:09AM, talok55 wrote:

The other races do get bonuses, dont they?  Anyway, humans may be bland, but they don't suck.  Think of it this way, how many powegamers would rush to play a human in 4E, 3.5, or Pathfinder if they got a +1 to all stats and then another +1 to their class's main stat?  Yeah, that's what I thought.

No, according to this play test, none of the races got any racial bonus, except human.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

That thread didn't say anything official about other races not getting bonuses.  One guy did say the following.

The OP is correct as far as I can see, except fighters get +1 con, not +1 strength (that bonus is coming from being a dwarf). All IMO 

May 25, 2012 -- 7:22AM, Xallin wrote:

May 25, 2012 -- 7:18AM, Haldrik wrote:

May 25, 2012 -- 7:09AM, talok55 wrote:

The other races do get bonuses, dont they?  Anyway, humans may be bland, but they don't suck.  Think of it this way, how many powegamers would rush to play a human in 4E, 3.5, or Pathfinder if they got a +1 to all stats and then another +1 to their class's main stat?  Yeah, that's what I thought.

No, according to this play test, none of the races got any racial bonus, except human.

community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

That thread didn't say anything official about other races not getting bonuses.  One guy did say the following.

The OP is correct as far as I can see, except fighters get +1 con, not +1 strength (that bonus is coming from being a dwarf). All IMO 

The person that said that is wrong. His “IMO” is incorrect.


The other races got no racial bonuses. Thats just what the numbers mean.  

There are a ton of errors on the character sheets, such as incorrect totals of attack bonuses to missing items in equipment. It is possible that the human is missing the description of some of his bonuses. Such as an extra feat which would explain why he has an extra orison over the dwarf cleric.

+1 to all stats seems pretty counter intuitive to what they have ever dome for the human, but with the absence of skill points and the six types of saving throws there are it kind of meshes with the 4e essentials human who got an extra feat, skill, and +1 to saving throws IIRC

I reckon I'll wait and see the actual racial write-ups before deciding which ones suck.

May 25, 2012 -- 8:08AM, Majin_Chasu wrote:

There are a ton of errors on the character sheets, such as incorrect totals of attack bonuses to missing items in equipment. It is possible that the human is missing the description of some of his bonuses. Such as an extra feat which would explain why he has an extra orison over the dwarf cleric. +1 to all stats seems pretty counter intuitive to what they have ever dome for the human, but with the absence of skill points and the six types of saving throws there are it kind of meshes with the 4e essentials human who got an extra feat, skill, and +1 to saving throws IIRC

The math for comparing the abilities of each character, is clean. All the numbers work out.

The Human gets racial ability bonuses, but the other races dont.

It seems to me, +1 all is the Human racial feature. And its an awesome one. Apparently its part of their “humans are good at anything” flavor.



Regarding the comparison of their Channel Divinity, it seems you get 1 Channel Divinity per point of Wisdom bonus.
• The Human has 18 Wisdom thus a +4 bonus and has 4 CDs.
• The Dwarf has 16 Wisdom thus a +3 bonus and has 3 CDs.                 

One thing I think everyone is missing is that the Human has a bonus at-will (or minor spell).  I don't know how this would play out with a non-spellcaster, but I can't seem to attribute it to anything BUT race here. 

May 25, 2012 -- 8:36AM, Marandahir wrote:

One thing I think everyone is missing is that the Human has a bonus at-will (or minor spell).  I don't know how this would play out with a non-spellcaster, but I can't seem to attribute it to anything BUT race here. 

I assume the extra atwill has to do with domain. The domains are asymmetric. For example, the Protection domain gets all armor and a better weapon, while the Sun domain doesnt. So Sun makes up for it in other places, including this Detect Magic.

Okay, that makes more sense to me; thanks Haldrik. 

I jumped on that conclusion BEFORE I saw how much of a huge racial ability score bonus Humans get.  They get no extra features, but this is balanced by them being better at all checks and contests, with the +1/five and +2/key ability scores.


I had forgotten about the Domains momentarily.  That's something I'll be interested in seeing once we get the character building playtest packet in a month or so.

May 24, 2012 -- 1:51PM, Xallin wrote:

  I'd like to point out I said that extra skill points would be lame as most people I know don't use a point buy system to generate stats.

I'd like to point out that everyone I know does use point buy.  When it's anecdote vs. anecdote, who wins?

I will jump of the humans must be best bandwagon.

From what I have seen here human get +1 to all scores(lame) and +2 to key ability(even lamer)

I want to see and elf trained for archery to ALWAYS be better than the human trained at it.

I want to see and half-orc trained for bashing skulls and arm wrestling to ALWAYS be better than a human trained at it.

If human strength is versatility then the solution is that humans have no bad side not to have many good sides.


So, if every race get +2 to their key ability that defines their superiority over other races then humans should get +2 to 2 of their lowest scores.
That way they get more bonus total, but do not outshine the races at what they should be the best. And by this way humans get to be best around the board.
 

May 25, 2012 -- 7:22AM, Xallin wrote:

The OP is correct as far as I can see, except fighters get +1 con, not +1 strength (that bonus is coming from being a dwarf). All IMO 

This is almost certainly incorrect. There is a reason that Hill Dwarves and Mountain Dwarves are distinct races. There's no way they create a D&D and don't give a Dwarf a Constitution bonus. This means that it's almost guaranteed that it's the Hill Dwarf granting +1 Constitution, and the Fighter class granting +1 Strength. Then, the Mountain Dwarf is the one granting +1 Strength.

You see the same thing with the High Elf; they're going back to a lot of old tradition in Next, so there's no way they wouldn't let you play a high-Dex. elf. So I'm willing to bet that when we see the Wood Elf, they'll get +1 Dexterity, instead of the High Elf's +1 Intelligence.

The reason I know that races do get bonuses, by the way, is the same as the rest: they're going back here, and using traditional things to evoke nostalgia. That's why I'm willing to be they're using the Elite Array for stats: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. That means that each race gets a +1 to something (and using tradition, the Array, and the way stats are arranged, it's not hard to figure out who gets what.) Humans get +1 to everything, +1 to any one other. Although I'm thinking maybe humans instead get +1 to everything, then +1 to their Class's ability.

But in the end, we all know that there is no possible way they're going to make a D&D game and not give races ability score bonuses. Especially when they're specifically looking to evoke an old-school feel.

May 25, 2012 -- 11:37AM, JRutterbush wrote:

This is almost certainly incorrect. There is a reason that Hill Dwarves and Mountain Dwarves are distinct races. There's no way they create a D&D and don't give a Dwarf a Constitution bonus. This means that it's almost guaranteed that it's the Hill Dwarf granting +1 Constitution, and the Fighter class granting +1 Strength. Then, the Mountain Dwarf is the one granting +1 Strength.

This seems to be correct.  All the pregens have stats 15/14/13/12/10/8 if we assume +1 to their primary stat from their class, +1 to one stat from their race (hill dwarf: Con, mountain dwarf: Str, high elf: Int), except that the human gets +1 to all stats and +2 to their main stat (or a stat of their choice).  Which would mean a theoretical starting stat of 21 for a human!  Or an off-stat of a 20 (e.g. human wizard, 20 Con--5HP per 1d4 hit die!).

May 25, 2012 -- 11:37AM, JRutterbush wrote:

May 25, 2012 -- 7:22AM, Xallin wrote:

The OP is correct as far as I can see, except fighters get +1 con, not +1 strength (that bonus is coming from being a dwarf). All IMO 

This is almost certainly incorrect. There is a reason that Hill Dwarves and Mountain Dwarves are distinct races. There's no way they create a D&D and don't give a Dwarf a Constitution bonus. This means that it's almost guaranteed that it's the Hill Dwarf granting +1 Constitution, and the Fighter class granting +1 Strength. Then, the Mountain Dwarf is the one granting +1 Strength.

You see the same thing with the High Elf; they're going back to a lot of old tradition in Next, so there's no way they wouldn't let you play a high-Dex. elf. So I'm willing to bet that when we see the Wood Elf, they'll get +1 Dexterity, instead of the High Elf's +1 Intelligence.

The reason I know that races do get bonuses, by the way, is the same as the rest: they're going back here, and using traditional things to evoke nostalgia. That's why I'm willing to be they're using the Elite Array for stats: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. That means that each race gets a +1 to something (and using tradition, the Array, and the way stats are arranged, it's not hard to figure out who gets what.) Humans get +1 to everything, +1 to any one other. Although I'm thinking maybe humans instead get +1 to everything, then +1 to their Class's ability.

But in the end, we all know that there is no possible way they're going to make a D&D game and not give races ability score bonuses. Especially when they're specifically looking to evoke an old-school feel.

Look. Math is math. There is a right answer.

If you know how to do a math problem, you can sort thru the numbers yourself. And you can see for a fact:

The other races dont get any ability bonuses.

They just dont. Get over it.





Possibly, the designers havent decided the best way to implement racial abilities at this time. They said, character abilities are things that they will look at in later playtests, but not in this one. So there isnt any need to implement racial ability bonuses at this time. It isnt what they want to focus on. They want to make sure the basic rules help the adventure be fun.

This table might make it easier to keep track of the numbers.

 

Alright, here is a table that lists the ability scores of each of the five characters.

All five characters are using this array: 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

On top of this array, each character adds their class bonus. The total value including the class bonus is in parentheses ().

Then on top of this, the Human race - and only the Human race - adds a racial bonus: +1 All. The total value including the racial bonus is in brackets [].

As you can see, the human is adding +1 to every ability in this array, and that leaves no other numbers to play with.

The other races simply lack a racial bonus.
 

Class	Race	Str	Dex	Con	Int	Wis	Cha
Cleric, Sun (+1 Wis)	Human [+1 All]	8 [9]	14 [15]	12 [13]	10 [11]	16 (17) [18]	13 [14]
Cleric, Protection (+1 Str)	Dwarf, Mountain [No racial bonus]	14 (15)	8	13	10	16	12
Fighter (+1 Con)	Dwarf, Hill   [No racial bonus]	16	12	13 (14)	8	14	10
Rogue (+1 Dex)	Halfling, Lightfoot [No racial bonus]	12	16 (17)	13	14	8	10
Wizard (+1 Int)	Elf, High [No racial bonus]	8	13	14	16 (17)	12	10

One step at a time. This playtest is for the core rules. Not for race balancing or character creation. Those rules likely haven't been looked at in much detail because much of the core system will change based on our current playtest.

critical-hits.com/2012/05/23/playtest-dd...

Playtest What You’re Given, Not What You Fear

"what you’re seeing is only an early portion of the rules. It’s an important portion of the rules, probably the most critical parts, but there’s plenty more development and expansion to come. Thus, if you try a rule, and it works out or it doesn’t, report on that. In a lot of cases, you can extrapolate some worst case scenario of how a rule couldn’t work based on what comes later. Resist this urge"

Ok, admit this arrangement is possible. (Maybe Occums Razor doesnt always work.) But then the racial bonuses for the Human are highly surprising.
 

Class	Race	Str	Dex	Con	Int	Wis	Cha
Cleric, Sun (+1 Wis)	Human [+1 All] [+1 Class Ability]	8 [9]	14 [15]	12 [13]	10 [11]	15 (16) [17] [18]	13 [14]
Cleric, Protection (+1 Wis)	Dwarf, Mountain [+1 Str]	14 [15]	8	13	10	15  (16)	12
Fighter (+1 Str)	Dwarf, Hill   [+1 Con]	15 (16)	12	13 [14]	8	14	10
Rogue (+1 Dex)	Halfling, Lightfoot [+1 Dex]	12	15 (16) [17]	13	14	8	10
Wizard (+1 Int)	Elf, High [+1 Int]	8	13	14	15 (16) [17]	12	10

You know, I like these hypothetical racial abilities.


I like the fact the Elf is an Int race. It means their culture can produce *great* Wizards.

I like the fact the subraces determine the ability bonus. The Mountain-Dwarf is Strong. The Hill-Dwarf is Constituted.

The “Lightfoot” is Dexterous.
 
Awesome.


Supposing this is the correct arrangement, I think the Human ability bonuses are overthetop compared to the other races. It seems to me, +1 All, is already an appealing racial feature to compensate for the lack of special racial features that the other races have, such as “shadow vision”. If this extra class bonus stays, maybe make the other racial bonuses +2.
  

 
The lack of racial penalties will make many players happy.

May 25, 2012 -- 7:58PM, Haldrik wrote:

Supposing this is the correct arrangement, I think the Human ability bonuses are overthetop compared to the other races. It seems to me, +1 All, is already an appealing racial feature to compensate for the lack of special racial features that the other races have, such as “shadow vision”. If this extra class bonus stays, maybe make the other racial bonuses +2.

Low-light vision isn't the big thing you need to look at, though it is useful. Dwarves are flat-out immune to poison, and can never get lost in any stone-based dungeon. Like, y'know... all of them. Elves are immune to charm and sleep, and get Advantage (often equivalent to a +5 bonus) on three of the most common checks made in the game; Look, Spot and Search. Halflings get a 2/day reroll of anything, and the ability to hide almost anywhere with allies.

Add to that, a human getting +1 to everything isn't that big a deal, since half of those bonus +1's won't help them much at all. A Fighter doesn't really need +1 Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma; it's a nice bonus, but not that big a deal. Same for the Wizard and Strength, Wisdom and Charisma. Rogues don't need Strength, Intelligence or Charisma unless they're social Rogues. The fact is, +1 to everything is a nice thing to have, but it's not overpowering because most people will only benefit from a few of the stat bumps.

May 25, 2012 -- 6:50PM, MindWandererB wrote:

Which would mean a theoretical starting stat of 21 for a human!

Actually, the non-monster maximum for ability scores is 20, so even a Human couldn't get a 21.

May 24, 2012 -- 1:45PM, Gunthar wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:40PM, abchurch wrote:

What ever happened to D&D being a role- (verses roll-) playing game?

What's with these morons who think good math/design somehow inhibits roleplaying?

+1

Exactly I like balanced math AND role-playing...

If the human racial ability is in fact a +1 to all attributes with either a +1 'floater' or +1 to the prime attribute of their class, then I think that would actually be better than most of the other racial abilities.  Why?  In 5e, it would seem that the skill/attack curve is virtually flat and almost any attribute can be called on for a save or skill.  That being so, it's a big boost (even for the fighter's +1 Int) that you will always have over everyone else.  That's double true if we assume at higher levels (and I think it's a pretty safe assumption) that magic will be able to mimic and/or eliminate racial advantages the other races already have.


-Polaris

May 24, 2012 -- 2:01PM, NumberOneTheLarch wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:45PM, Gunthar wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:40PM, abchurch wrote:

What ever happened to D&D being a role- (verses roll-) playing game?

What's with these morons who think good math/design somehow inhibits roleplaying?

What's with these people who think name calling is appropriate or even neccesary when discussing a game where a bunch of dudes or dudettes sit around a table and pretend to be wizards and knights and shiz?

Ok...

What with these PEOPLE who think good math/design somehow inhibits role-playing?

May 24, 2012 -- 3:03PM, Nuorn wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 2:01PM, NumberOneTheLarch wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:45PM, Gunthar wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:40PM, abchurch wrote:

What ever happened to D&D being a role- (verses roll-) playing game?

What's with these morons who think good math/design somehow inhibits roleplaying?

What's with these people who think name calling is appropriate or even neccesary when discussing a game where a bunch of dudes or dudettes sit around a table and pretend to be wizards and knights and shiz?

This. ^^


On topic: What would be an example of a well done human race?


o Stat bonus? Obviously not (enough)? Done before.

o Skill bonus? Obviously not (enough)? Done before.

o A write-up with strange and exciting special abilities? Maybe, but wouldn't we lose the non-exotic standard race by that? Of course the classical counter is flexibility, adaptibility in racial powers/feats/multiclassing. Done before.

So how would you do it?            

I'd let them pick an aditional theme/background at level 1...

May 25, 2012 -- 7:41PM, Haldrik wrote:

Ok, admit this arrangement is possible. (Maybe Occums Razor doesnt always work.) But then the racial bonuses for the Human are highly surprising.
 

Class	Race	Str	Dex	Con	Int	Wis	Cha
Cleric, Sun (+1 Wis)	Human [+1 All] [+1 Class Ability]	8 [9]	14 [15]	12 [13]	10 [11]	15 (16) [17] [18]	13 [14]
Cleric, Protection (+1 Wis)	Dwarf, Mountain [+1 Str]	14 [15]	8	13	10	15  (16)	12
Fighter (+1 Str)	Dwarf, Hill   [+1 Con]	15 (16)	12	13 [14]	8	14	10
Rogue (+1 Dex)	Halfling, Lightfoot [+1 Dex]	12	15 (16) [17]	13	14	8	10
Wizard (+1 Int)	Elf, High [+1 Int]	8	13	14	15 (16) [17]	12	10

Occums razor is usually misunderstood. It isn't "The simplest of all answers is usually the right one." Its "when all answers are equally valid, then the one that is the simplest is probably right."

Thought about this some more, made a decision: I don't like it.

I don't like that humans are tougher, on average, than mountain dwarves and more agile than high elves.  I don't like that humans will always have the highest stats.  In a game where a +1 modifier to attack rolls or save DC's is so valuable--and it's more valuable in this edition than any other, with flat math and few modifiers--racial options better be darn good for me to take them instead.  And if we assume half your stats are even and half odd, the human gets +1 to half their saves and possibly a point of AC and/or some HP.

Right now the human is almost strictly the best combat choice.  A dwarf is good when the poison comes out, as are elves with sleep/charm, and halflings are amazing on a 5-minute workday, but increases to half your ability scores, especially a probable +1 on your primary (and definitely a +1 compared to a race with no bonus) is a gift that keeps on giving.

Another oddity: The "monster" human has stats 11/11/10/9/9/8--worse than average.  So only heroic humans are exceptional?

May 26, 2012 -- 12:06AM, MindWandererB wrote:

 So only heroic humans are exceptional?

 No BBEGs Human too ! 

May 25, 2012 -- 10:23PM, lokiare wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 2:01PM, NumberOneTheLarch wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:45PM, Gunthar wrote:

May 24, 2012 -- 1:40PM, abchurch wrote:

What ever happened to D&D being a role- (verses roll-) playing game?

What's with these morons who think good math/design somehow inhibits roleplaying?

What's with these people who think name calling is appropriate or even neccesary when discussing a game where a bunch of dudes or dudettes sit around a table and pretend to be wizards and knights and shiz?

Ok...

What with these PEOPLE who think good math/design somehow inhibits role-playing?

Yeah, @NumberOneTheLarch: name calling may be unhelpful, but so is calling someone out for it and then failing to adress their actual point. Obviously everyone could stand to be a bit more polite at times, but that doesn't change the fact that balanced balanced math and immersive narrative and simulation are not mutually exclusive, making the role playing vs roll playing argument a logical falacy.