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1 year ago ::
May 18, 2012 - 4:28PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jan 19, 2010
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community.wizards.com/dndnext/blog/2012/...I feel it's a better outline than the fighter, and a thing that made me pleased were: " Paladins who champion non-good or even evil divine callings are possible, and in some cases their goals and related specific abilities are directly antithetical to champions of good."
I'm not pleased, however, with the emphasis on swords and the adherence to Lawful alignment.
Feedback?
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Endorsed by the C.C.A.A. Booty Patrol.
"If all the classes can compete on equal footing in a combat situation then it becomes less about "Which is the best" and more about "Which conveys the character I want to play"." - Areleth
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1 year ago ::
May 18, 2012 - 4:35PM
#2
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Not to rain on your parade, but there's a thread for this: community.wizards.com/dndnext/go/thread/...(with_Bruce_Cordell)
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves. Quotation of the moment
Show
Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?
Quotation of ALL moments
Show
TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon.
A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.
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1 year ago ::
May 18, 2012 - 4:40PM
#3
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Not to rain on your parade, but there's a thread for this: community.wizards.com/dndnext/go/thread/...(with_Bruce_Cordell)
True, but that one has degenerated into an alignment debate.
Speaking specifically about the mechanics: I don't think the mount should be a feature. It's ok if they make it an optional feature, but they're really setting themselves up for one of two things. Either 1) the paladin with mount feature will be set up to benefit from mounted combat, and will be hampered when they can't use their mount (like in dungeons), or 2) the mount will be just a movement method that isn't really deserving of taking up space as a class feature.
I do like that the article indicated that paladins could smite without needing an alignment tag to do so. However, the detect evil bit still bothers me. Unless magical physical disguises (like a succubus changing shape) can mask evil auras automatically, DMs will have to invent other means of concealing alignment to prevent plot short-circuits.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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1 year ago ::
May 18, 2012 - 4:55PM
#4
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OK, I'll bite. Maybe we'll just not talk about alignment in this thread. Hahaha we can try at least  The mount thing can be OK if the class isn't balanced around it. One cool thing in the article is the idea that the paladin tends to spread his powers to his allies. So perhaps the mounted paladin will benefit the party more as travelers and explorers than as combatants. Or his bonuses in mounted combat will be group-oriented, so that everyone will have an incentive to fight on horseback in non-dungeon settings. For example, defensive and mobility boosts for mounts might be enough reason for wizards and rangers to cast and shoot arrows from horseback. Overall, I'm open to some new ideas that ensure that (1) the paladin isn't diminished by the absense of his mount and (2) the paladin won't be the only one who wants to bring a mount when possible.
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves. Quotation of the moment
Show
Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?
Quotation of ALL moments
Show
TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon.
A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.
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1 year ago ::
May 18, 2012 - 4:59PM
#5
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looks better than the wizard....
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
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1 year ago ::
May 18, 2012 - 6:04PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Nov 17, 2003
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Speaking specifically about the mechanics: I don't think the mount should be a feature. It's ok if they make it an optional feature, but they're really setting themselves up for one of two things. Either 1) the paladin with mount feature will be set up to benefit from mounted combat, and will be hampered when they can't use their mount (like in dungeons), or 2) the mount will be just a movement method that isn't really deserving of taking up space as a class feature.
Would you find it acceptable if the mount was a part of the exploration pillar of the paladin's abilities and did not particularly interact with the combat pillar?
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1 year ago ::
May 18, 2012 - 6:05PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2004
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Response to things I like:
- Well, they're starting with a mount this time...
Response to things I don't like, in the most delicate manner possible:
- Boo!
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1 year ago ::
May 18, 2012 - 6:50PM
#8
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Speaking specifically about the mechanics: I don't think the mount should be a feature. It's ok if they make it an optional feature, but they're really setting themselves up for one of two things. Either 1) the paladin with mount feature will be set up to benefit from mounted combat, and will be hampered when they can't use their mount (like in dungeons), or 2) the mount will be just a movement method that isn't really deserving of taking up space as a class feature.
Would you find it acceptable if the mount was a part of the exploration pillar of the paladin's abilities and did not particularly interact with the combat pillar?
Of course. Personally, I think mounted combat in DDN should be a theme. That way all classes can have at it, and no class is forced to be balanced around it while being suboptimal on foot.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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1 year ago ::
May 18, 2012 - 7:11PM
#9
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A paladin with no mount,detect evil,sword and shield or two handed weapon,lawful alignment,healing and smiting is no longer a paladin.Well at least by many who play rpgs and in this case DnD.This formula is what many have grown use to.Can you remove some or most of these and still be left with a class you would call a paladin?
Well people who are for classes that can be altered/flavored up in any way possible will have a problem with this kind of pally.Unless these themes they speak of can add things to the mix.The article did say a typical paladin had heavy armor and a sword.So I would think between themes/feats whatever you could make a non typical paladin in medium or light armor with a spear.That is just a guess however I have no facts to back up what if any restraints there will be on the various classes.
I like the pally having a mount to start with.We do not know if they will start off with mounted training/advantage over the other classes as of yet.A theme/ability etc that gives them this advantage or lets them lend it to allies could be rather cool.
I always liked the detect evil anility.Maybe not the version where you have the player saying "Is there evil in this room?How about this room?What about this hallway?Is this door evil?How about the treasure we just got?Is the innkeeper evil?The barmaid?The cloaked figure in the corner that is smoking the pipe and staring at the halflings?I like the idea of the pally if nothing else having a type of sixth sense and intuition on such matters.
The alignment thing is a sticky subject.I never cared for alignment and used it in a very loose way if at all in my games or when I ran my characters.At its best it was used as are you chaotic or lawful are you good or evil or somewhere slightly between,there is no true neutral.Uaually I just let the players play how they wanted to and when they acted out of normal character or beliefs I just asked them why and went from there.For the pally to be always lawful I have no problem with.It always seemed to me that this class was founded on structure,obedience and the adherance to law and order regardless of good or evil mentality.
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1 year ago ::
May 18, 2012 - 7:40PM
#10
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I missed that about the mount.....
the mount is one of the most of the overlooked, underated, hardly used, most often griped about, and a few other things paladin abilties.
some like a free mount, some don't. some like it as a horse and some dont.
I'm not one of those people who like the paladin's mount. namely as I dont like mounted combat which is one of the things that is most assosicated with a mount and if I have to have a mount, that I'd prefer to have something other than a horse as my mount. A roc, a riding lizard, a large dire weasel, a unicorn, a griffen, a hyppogriff, a dire animal.
Really a horse makes no sense if your paladin is not an air breather and lives under the sea and rests in an octopusses garden in the shade.
the mount should be optional.
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
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