Hi, I'm trying to get some input on Genasi warlock im building.
Please start a new thread for any feedback you wish for your character. This is not the thread for it, and it will likely get lost in all the discussion here.
We may not all be able to agree what this thred is, but I think we can all agree this is what it is not.
LFR legal builds (with the assumption they are organically leveled up for equipment) Individual discussion threads before a build is added here. Good should be more important than Easy. Builds should work fine for a one shot, but should be geared for longer term play. There should be multiple builds for each class representing different aspects. We should start a new collection thread when this discussion is hashed out.
Also, I would add that I'd like to see hybrids as improvement on a class. For instance say there is an executioner, underneath it, one could list a "better" executioner that has gone hybrid with Warlock or another class for greater benefits. Under Bladesinger and/or Hexblade, you could have, here is a better build that can work for the same concept, a hybrid Swordmage|Warlock.
Part of the problem will be that different people value different tools for optimized builds. Baldhermit says he'd take superior weapon or implement by level 5 for every build. I feel for instance expertise and accurate implement would be too costly of an investment as two of your 3 feats, to give up other aspects of what a build is supposed to do. I'd probably take a multi-class feat by level 6 for nearly every build, Power of Skill sometime during heroic depending on skill set, and Superior Will at level 8 or so. Someone else might have other priorities. It's going to be difficult to prioritize, and we need to make a concession that there isn't always going to be one right answer to a build. If you don't like someone else's build, take another approach, submit another build, and they can both be represented in the collection. A new player who wants to play a Paladin, will not be overwhelmed by having to click on 3-4 builds to see which one he likes better.
I agree with all of this. The only thing would be an consensus agreement that all classes be represented. They can all include a disclaimer stating that the class can be better built with such and such combo but should still be included. But i guess that was covered in the second portion of your statement.
What about blaster wizard? I posted a build for that two pages back. I suppose I could turn it into a sha'ir or witch if you really want, but I don't really see the point (mage/evoker/pyromancer is the natural choice here).
Maybe I saw this, maybe not? Not 100% sure. I'll go back and look.
All in all I am happy everyone gets to stroke their own ego, telling themselves they were right in whatever their conviction was to begin with, since it seems a lot of words are exchanged, but few are listening or willing to concede someone else might have a point.
I concede that you may have a point. But most of your point is that the arguing from people like you has filled the thread with a bunch of stuff that buries the stuff that is actually contributing. I don't really get the stroking of ego comment. What precisely does that mean?
Result is, we have a thread on our hands that is still a hot mess, with no exact goal, quite possibly no place in this sub-forum, with a lot of builds that could do with some critique.
First off the goal was, I thought, fairly straightforward. Build characters that were strong, fairly easy to play and non-gimmicky. No hybrids, straight classes, heroic builds only please. Build at 1, 5, 8. Also include descriptions and some relative things for each class. Seems pretty straightfoward to me.
Secondly, if you feel it needs critiques then give critiques. From what I've seen here most of the stuff that has actually been critiqued has changed, for the better, from that critique. You can call out "this needs fixing" only so much until someone goes "ok, you think so, please by all means go ahead".
The critiqueing (if that is even a word) of these builds has to wait however until we are clear what we want to do with this thread. And by we I mean all who would like this thread to do well, and by this (to some peoples possible surprise) I do include Zathris, Zelink and myself. Matyr, you may have started this thread, and maintain it, but by its very nature it is a community effort, and as such the community should have a say in what it's goals should be.
Ok, this is actually progress. Saying "hey we want to do something, here is what our goals should be" so we can discuss them is a lot more helpful than a lot of people's additions of "you all are all doing everything wrong and are only using this as an outlet for your terribleness".
Some points to consider when Matyr rewrites the original goals, or when this thread dies and he or someone else starts a new thread with the same basic idea are the following:
Yay bald is going to be helpful /cheer (seriously, I'm excited).
- Should these builds be as simple as possible, to be understood by a novice, or should they be as enhanced as allowed at this low of a level? Automatically following this, and that is something we should strive to avoid fighting about, comes a whole range of personal preferences. I myself think either superior implement or weapon expertise should be taken before level 5 no matter what the class or role; quite sure not everyone agrees with me.
They need to be fairly simple so as to be able to be understood at least on a basic level quickly, but complex enough to be strong. Basically what I was originally looking for is this: No Gimmicky builds. By Gimmicky builds I mean things that rely on either really odd interactions in the rules, one really specific trick, or some stretching of a particular rule that is commonly contested. So things like the Gatekeeper build rely on odd rules interaction to make themselves a bubble of "can't kill this" that might be a bit for a new player/dm/group. Things like the breather build relies on breath weapon recycling and tricks with the breath to hit 2-3 times per turn in a burst which can raise eyebrows, you can accidentally get yourself killed, and also be a burden on the table if you take even a little time with each roll. Things like MC cleric to get BCL is a good example of something that is rather rules-fuzzy.
- Are these builds only intended for a few sessions as an introduction to the game, and if so, why on earth would you pick any features, or base any criticism on how well the class, race, features, whatever will do beyond level 8 ? On the other hand, if the builds posted here are supposed to lay the groundwork for a character that can or is supposed to be played by a person newly interested in 4e till level 30, the mindset of the people providing these builds should be entirely different.
This is something that I did a poor job with, and something that will be integral to the next incarnation of this thread. The idea that I had in mind, but did not properly state was to build things that would last you through heroic. I think that if they are playing past level 10 and they want to be optimized, they need to actually read up on their class. Heroic is easy enough that a plug-and-play method can work, but as many optimizers have been known to say "paragon is where optimization starts".
I propose that the next incarnation of the thread say something along the lines of "These characters are meant exclusively for heroic tier play. If you are taking one of these characters and building them to paragon or epic you should do more research in how to optimize that particular build. First, take a look at the handbooks and do your research on relevant Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies. Second, search the forums and see if something like your build has been done before (yes, in fact there is a build about about using your dragonborn's breath weapon). Third, Make a new thread with your character built to the maximum level you think you are going to play at and see what sort of specific feedback you can get from the denizens of char op. It is beyond the purview of this thread to build anything beyond heroic tier." Thoughts on that line?
- Personally I am of the opinion that the LFR ruleset should be leading here in what is and is not legal, since in my experience that is the most common setting new players encounter this game in. Also, homebrew rules (again, my personal experience) often distinguish themselves by stating how they differ from LFR.
Fair enough. I'm personally not well equipped for saying "that isn't LFR legal", but I think that it is a common enough idea (and a good idea) to limit to LFR legal builds.
It is likely I forgot some key feature. What I mostly want to express is that if we stop treating this like we actually have a personal stake in any of the silly arguments above, and try to work together, we could set up a decent collection.
Good to see. Personally I am glad that the concensus is on this being a good idea as it seems like a lot of people are more along the idea of "This is a terrible plan and you should stop" rather than "This isn't well done, here is how I want it to be done differently".
EDIT: To be perfectly clear, I think we need to start over with this idea. Let's have a discussion in this thread about what it should look like, and start over when there is a more or less clear idea and some semblance of concensus about what it is we want to achieve.
I would also propose we use PEACH threads for the seperate builds, and not add them to the collection until they have been sorted. Adding several builds a day to this thread itself like we have been just means there is not sufficient attention and critique to each seperate proposed build as to do the thread justice.
Maybe then we can have a thread that works well enough to add to the collective.
Originally I had thought this might be a bad idea due to cluttering up the boards. However, if people think it is preferable to have a detailed index and then a bunch of individual simple threads I am 100% on board with this plan. The only addition I would make is someway to denote that those threads are for this. Maybe the tag: [Pregen - PEACH] Build Name?
LFR legal builds (with the assumption they are organically leveled up for equipment) Individual discussion threads before a build is added here. Good should be more important than Easy. Builds should work fine for a one shot, but should be geared for longer term play. There should be multiple builds for each class representing different aspects. We should start a new collection thread when this discussion is hashed out.
I agree on all accounts except for 1 and that is "long term play". I think these builds should be heroic builds. They are designed for 1-shots, learning new classes and new players. If people want to play out of heroic, they should learn how to build their own character, or not worry about being sub-optimal so much.
As far as the different aspects. In a day or two when I have time I will try to give what I think is a comprehensive list of what the index should look like (If anyone else would like to they are also welcome to) and we can go from that as a starting point. Not saying that list will be even very good, but you have to write something down first before you can edit it.
Also, I would add that I'd like to see hybrids as improvement on a class. For instance say there is an executioner, underneath it, one could list a "better" executioner that has gone hybrid with Warlock or another class for greater benefits. Under Bladesinger and/or Hexblade, you could have, here is a better build that can work for the same concept, a hybrid Swordmage|Warlock.
I agree with this. The only reason I was hesitant to start with hybrids from the get-go is that is a huge additional list to add onto an already fairly large list of stuff for this one thread to do. Having multiple strong hybrids listed seemed a little counter-purpose (to at least how I was viewing the thread) if there were a lot of other common builds not represented.
Part of the problem will be that different people value different tools for optimized builds. Baldhermit says he'd take superior weapon or implement by level 5 for every build. I feel for instance expertise and accurate implement would be too costly of an investment as two of your 3 feats, to give up other aspects of what a build is supposed to do. I'd probably take a multi-class feat by level 6 for nearly every build, Power of Skill sometime during heroic depending on skill set, and Superior Will at level 8 or so. Someone else might have other priorities. It's going to be difficult to prioritize, and we need to make a concession that there isn't always going to be one right answer to a build. If you don't like someone else's build, take another approach, submit another build, and they can both be represented in the collection. A new player who wants to play a Paladin, will not be overwhelmed by having to click on 3-4 builds to see which one he likes better.
This is something that I also agree with quite a bit. My original vision for what I wanted this thread to do was too narrow, yet also unfocused. There will indeed be some personal preference (which is where some of the looseness of "good and simple" comes from) that can be taken into account. I would love to eventually see an index that includes 4-5 builds of the popular classes, 3 builds for the good classes and a token build for each of the bad ones (although all of that is subjective).
I need to go for now, but I'll be back on later to continue the discussion.
Currently working on making a Dex based defender. Check it out here Spoiler:Show
Need a few pre-generated characters for a one-shot you are running? Want to get a baseline for what an effective build for a class you aren't familiar with? Check out the Pregen thread here If ever you are interested what it sounds like to be at my table check out my blog and podcast here Also, I've recently done an episode on "Refluffing". You can check that out here
Assassin - ** First off, a word of warning: the original assassin class has complicated mechanics, and even after they are mastered, it's *still a weak class.* Seriously consider playing an Executioner instead, which is both simpler and more powerful. There are ways to interpret the rules that will lead to a competitive assassin, but these interpretations are 1) controversial, and 2) complicated, so they are outside the scope of these pregens. If you are interested, check out erachima's handbook.
Assassins specialize in stealth, mobility, and dealing lots of damage in a single attack. Stealth requires a lot of resources, so we'll ignore that for the most part to focus more on direct damage, particularly through charging. Your striker damage mechanic is the Assassin's Shroud power, which lets you add on shrouds to an enemy every round until you decide to invoke them all in one big burst of damage. Unfortunately, this is foolish, because killing things faster is what's important. So you will almost always invoke your shroud as soon as you apply it.
A few general notes on your class mechanics: MechanicsShow
Shrouds: As mentioned above, you typically want to invoke these right away. Get in the habit of placing a shroud as the first thing you do in your turn. Place it on the enemy you plan to attack, unless you are going to attack something that you're sure will die (like a minion, or something near-dead). Keep in mind that you can only have shrouds on a single creature at once though, so don't try to spread them around or anything.
Guild Training: There are 3 choices, Bleak Disciple (stealth and survival), Night Stalker (damage), and Executioner's Guild (burst damage). You're going to use Night Stalker, because it's consistently useful, and you need all the damage you can get.
Night Stalker lets you deal extra damage when your target isn't adjacent to any of your enemies. What this means is, try to only attack enemies that aren't grouped next to other enemies. The DM will probably avoid grouping enemies much anyway, because grouping makes them vulnerable to your controller's bursts/blasts.
Shade Form: There are 2 options, Shade Form and Black Flame Form. Shade Form is good for stealth, Black Flame Form is good for damage. You're taking Black Flame Form.
The important thing to remember with this power is tha it ends the moment you make an attack. Therefore, always try to use it as the last action in your turn. You'll get good defensive bonuses, and you get to place an extra shroud on your target, which means next round you'll get to invoke 2 at once. As with most of your powers, the sooner in the encounter you use this, the better. Ideally, it'll be at the end of turn 1.
Shadow Step: This power is quite good, it's one of the better things assassin's get. You get to teleport from one square to another, as long as you start next to creature A, and end next to creature B. You might start/end next to the same creature; the below diagram would be totally valid.
(s=starting square, e=ending square) _ A s _ _ _ _ e _ _ _ _ _ B _
As a teleport, Shadow Step can get you out of grabs or certain other instances of being restrained. It also makes it easy to move around without provoking opportunity attacks. It's particularly good for allowing you to charge the same enemy every round, and you'll use it that way a lot.
The individual level breakdowns will explain how to use your acquired powers, particularly in the first two rounds, but here's your general strategy for rounds 3+: TacticsShow
Essentially, you're going to pick a target to focus on. Your ideal target will be not next to any other enemies (so you get your Night Stalker bonus), and will be close to your defender, so that you don't become the main target of the enemies. Your survivability is not great, so you want to avoid getting attacked as much as possible; don't run out in front of your party and make yourself the target. Plus, focus-firing with your party means that you kill things faster, so the enemies get fewer chances to hurt you.
You also want a target that you are able to charge. Your gouge is very powerful, and your feats are geared toward charging; this is your biggest source of at-will damage. Even if you can't charge from where you are, you have shifting, normal walking, and Shadow Step in your arsenal. You should almost always be able to create a charge lane to your target.
Once you've decided on your target, place a shroud on them, move into position (if necessary), and charge.
In terms of equipment, you want a Badge of the Berserker ASAP, then a Vanguard gouge, magic armor, a Horned Helm, and Iron Armbands of Power. When upgrading to higher level equipment, prioritize the weapon. Level 1Show
Race: Human. This means an extra feat, better defenses (you need it), and a fantastic power in Heroic Effort. This power gives you a +4 bonus to an attack roll you just made; use it when you miss, but you expect the +4 will make it into a hit. You will love this power for helping you land your big setup moves, like Nightmare Shades. Don't forget about it!
Theme: Sohei. The main feature of this theme is the minor action attack you get, Sohei Flurry. It can only be used after hitting with a weapon attack (so not after Nightmare Shades or a charge), but an extra attack is such a good damage boost that we don't mind. Later on, we'll use some of the powerswaps as well.
Background: Auspicious Birth (or Born Under A Bad Sign). The extra hit points you get from this are fantastic, and worth much more than what any other background offers.
Stats: We're going for the 18 DEX pre-racial, and then putting the +2 from being human into DEX as well. DEX gives you your attack bonus, your damage, your AC, your Reflex, and your initiative; it is most important by far. Charisma is a good secondary, it gives extra damage through Night Stalker and some of your powers, plus it helps your Will (the most important non-AC defense). Nothing else is all that useful, so whenever you boost stats, it will always be DEX/CHA.
Powers: At-Wills: Shadow Storm: it does a little more damage than the rest (note that you count as a creature, so you'll always have at least +1 from the effect). Executioner's Noose: it's a ranged option and it pulls+slows. You won't use it much, but it gives you an option if you're immobilized or similar.
Encounter: Gloom Thief: The 2[W] means a lot of damage with your gouge, and the invisibility makes you 1) harder to hit, 2) have constant CA, and 3) immune to OAs. But remember, just because you're invisible doesn't make you hidden, they can still hear you!
Daily: Targeted for Death: Great effect line. The actual hit won't be very impressive, but this power makes you get double the shroud damage in later rounds. Most useful on enemies that take a while to kill.
Feats: Melee Training (Dexterity): Sad that you need a feat for it, but any melee character should be able to make an effective OA, and you especially need this for charging. The half-mod damage hurts too, but it's the best you have. Weapon Proficiency (Gouge): This feat has the largest damage payoff of anything at this moment. It'll payoff even more later when you qualify for Surprising Charge.
Normal first rounds: Round 1: Pick the enemy you want to attack (use the guidelines from the Tactics section above). Place a shroud on them. Move action: move next to the enemy. Standard action: Gloom Thief (If you have an action point, use it here with Shadow Storm) Minor action: Sohei Flurry (if you hit with something; otherwise Black Flame Form)
Don't be afraid to mix this up if the situation calls for it, or to use Targeted for Death. And don't forget about Heroic Effort!
Round 2 (only if Black Flame Form is still available; otherwise use the general Tactics above): Attack the same enemy if possible. Place a shroud. Move action: Get next to the enemy, preferably to a flanking position. Standard action: Shadow Storm on the enemy. Minor action: Black Flame Form
Human, Assassin Guild Training: Night Stalker Assassin: Black Flame Form Human Power Selection: Heroic Effort Background: Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 10, Con 11, Dex 20, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 10, Con 11, Dex 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14.
Overall, the playstyle is the same. You're just better at it now.
New powers: Utility: Sohei Parry: It only applies to melee and ranged attacks, but this power can easily save your skin. If you're ever barely hit by an attack, use Sohei Parry, and suddenly that hit just became a miss.
Encounter: Nightshade's Kiss: Extra accurate (it's a weapon attack vs. a NAD). The sliding can be extremely powerful in the right party, like with a Sorcerer who uses Flame Spiral, or a number of controller zones. Even without such a party, repositioning an enemy so easily has good tactical benefits.
Daily: Grave Spike: Another good daily to use on a solo or elite. The effect line basically gives you a permanent +2 to hit that enemy (since you should always be attacking with shrouds). The ongoing damage/prone is just extra, it'll probably only trigger the first time.
New feats: Two-Handed Weapon Expertise: This gives you +1 to all your attacks, and it gives +1 damage when charging (which you do most rounds). Good two-in-one benefit. Cruel Shroud: Since you nearly always attack shrouded enemies, this becomes permanent combat advantage for you, with essentially no effort.
Normal first rounds: Round 1: Same as at level 1, except use Nightshade's Kiss instead of Shadow Storm when you have an action point.
Round 2: Attack the same enemy if possible. Place a shroud. Move action: Get next to the enemy, preferably to a flanking position. Standard action: Nightshade's Kiss on the enemy, if available. Otherwise, Shadow Storm. Minor action: Black Flame Form
Human, Assassin Guild Training: Night Stalker Assassin: Black Flame Form Human Power Selection: Heroic Effort Background: Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 10, Con 11, Dex 21, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 15.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 10, Con 11, Dex 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14.
Again, the playstyle hasn't changed much. You're a lot stronger though.
New powers: Utility: Ghost of the Rooftops: You were already mobile, but now you're nearly unstoppable. You can climb or jump freely, no checks required. This is great for battles in complex environments, but it's also just as good outside of combat, to climb cliffs or jump across chasms. A good, multi-purpose power.
Encounter: Sohei Advance: It's part of a charge, so you get all your bonuses, but it has a 2[W] base damage, you get your full DEX mod to damage, and you can use Sohei Flurry afterward. This power takes what you were already doing and just does it much better.
New feats: Sly Dodge: This is an MC feat for Rogues. It's mostly here to open up the next feat, but the free skill training and defense bonus aren't bad. Ideally you will never provoke an OA to begin with, but every once in a while it ends up being the best option, and this feat will make it less risky. Surprising Charge: Oh yes, this is what that last feat was for. 1[W] on a gouge averages to 8 damage, so getting an extra 1[W] on all your charges (since you have constant CA) is just fantastic.
Normal first rounds: Round 1: Pick your enemy and shroud, as usual. Standard action: Charge with Sohei Advance (If you hit, minor action: Sohei Flurry) (If you have an AP, use it: Gloom Thief)
Round 2: Too situational to create a list for. You're on your own now!
Human, Assassin Guild Training: Night Stalker Assassin: Black Flame Form Human Power Selection: Heroic Effort Background: Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 10, Con 11, Dex 22, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 10, Con 11, Dex 18, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 14.
Item-wise, try to pick up Babau Gauntlets as soon as you can. Once you have a pair, you can retrain Melee Training for something else, because the gauntlets are better (you get your full DEX mod on your attacks).
Feat-wise, Lethal Shroud and Improved Defenses are priorities. You might also want to start looking into the Frostcheese package, which will help boost your damage considerable.
For Paragon Paths, with your current setup I might recommend either Adroit Explorer or Traveler's Harlequin (stealing the daily from Jack-of-All-Trades). But there are a lot of PPs, and they can change the flavor of your character pretty quickly, so try to find something that matches up with how you would like to play. The two I listed are more generally good options.
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
Felt like I should contribute directly, after talking so much. Assassins are tough to make simple and not terrible!
I don't have a great sense of the asterisk rating system. My guess is that this is two-three stars, but I'm not sure.
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
Interesting build (or not really actually, just another charger ) . I'd rate it two stars, since you don't have off-turn actions and most of your turns play out the same.
One question: why Sly Dodge over Sneak of Shadows? Sneak Attack adds to a nova round, while +AC against OA's doesn't do much (especially when you carry a Badge of the Berserker).
I'd also like to see at least a basic list of items at each snapshot. Should be easy: Vanguard Gouge, Bestial Armor, Badge of the Berserker, Horned Helm, Iron Armbands of Power.
Alright, I'll make it two stars, and maybe items later (right now it's bed time...).
Sneak Attack would only work with a rogue weapon, correct? So with a gouge, it was Sly Dodge or Twilight Adept. I didn't want to talk about stealth, plus the skill from Sly Dodge is more useful, so that's why I chose that way between those two.
If Sneak of Shadows works with a gouge then, well, yes please.
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
Sneak Attack would only work with a rogue weapon, correct? So with a gouge, it was Sly Dodge or Twilight Adept. I didn't want to talk about stealth, plus the skill from Sly Dodge is more useful, so that's why I chose that way between those two.
If Sneak of Shadows works with a gouge then, well, yes please.
You're right, of course. In that case, I agree with the build.
Assassin - ** First off, a word of warning: the original assassin class has complicated mechanics, and even after they are mastered, it's *still a weak class.* Seriously consider playing an Executioner instead..
Or a Warlock|Executioner, an Avenger with a new description of its powers, a dagger Rogue, a Thief....
Could you please report this in its own thread, so that we can PEACH it there, and have a discussion here that started befoe you posted this build about what we want to achieve with these pre-gens?
) . I'd rate it two stars, since you don't have off-turn actions and most of your turns play out the same.
