Here is a crazzy idea- Lets swap up the races. Except for Thor being an Asgaurdian all the hero's are human because humans are the only race the writers know. So if we make the Avengers as D&D characters lets make them different D&D races.
Cap is humble, hard working, and plain folk due to his being a teen in the 40's. Sounds like a halfling to me. CHA is needed for his inspirational leadership style, he is often overlooked as the least dangerous Avenger yet always beats bigger, stronger enemys.
The Hulked out heros version of Thor is clearly a stormsoul genasi.
Tony never fights it's always IronMan ( Except for that one time with Mr Sensative ) So why not make him a warforged.
Hawleye elf is obviouse and mentioned above.
Black widow= Vryloka, Red hair, deadly, CHA + DEX, adaptable. Teifling would work too, as a soviet in the 70's she was the other side, sinister, not always trusted, but also exotic, and sexy.
The sea looks at the stabillity of the mountian and sighs. The mountian watches the freedom of the sea and cries.
and considering how Cap in his own origin movie spent the first (months year ?) doing shows to motivate people into spending money towards the war effort ? Motivating troops ? That's straight warlord. CHA lord is also very acceptable. Though i'd make it a hybrid lazy cha-lord | fighter. Maybe even brawler fighter considering that he almost always has a free hand.
Horray, someone got it!
All Caps motivating and war effort posturing is mechnically that he has an above average Charisma, circumstance and item bonuses, and dozens of people throwing him assist rolls (backup dancers, propoganda writers, etc.), maybe he has that belt that lets him add str to intimidate. Saying "He is the team leader, he's charismatic, and a 'captain' so clearly he's a Warlord" is precisely the sort of 'letting fluff dictate mechanics' that we hate here in CharOp.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
Saying "He is the team leader, he's charismatic, and a 'captain' so clearly he's a Warlord" is precisely the sort of 'letting fluff dictate mechanics' that we hate here in CharOp.
When you're building a character around an existing theme/character/idea, I think that the spirit of the exercise demands that you optimize inside the fluff of the thing. Otherwise, what the hell is the point of it all? At that point, you may as well just build whatever you want and refluff it as Captain America.
With the movie being out, I thought it would be amusing to build the team as PCs. Thor invoker|seeker? Hulk is obviously a BRV|dreadnought, or maybe the arid berserker. Iron man... Maybe war forged ranger with dual armbows? Capt A I'd say melee warlord perhaps.
Captain America is an Avenger who throws his Shield.
That description works both for the movie and for the D&D character.
Except Cap is definitely a leader, so that has to figure in somewhere.
He is?
Not sure I agree at all, but throw a theme at him.
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
Saying "He is the team leader, he's charismatic, and a 'captain' so clearly he's a Warlord" is precisely the sort of 'letting fluff dictate mechanics' that we hate here in CharOp.
When you're building a character around an existing theme/character/idea, I think that the spirit of the exercise demands that you optimize inside the fluff of the thing. Otherwise, what the hell is the point of it all? At that point, you may as well just build whatever you want and refluff it as Captain America.
You're missing my point about fluff. Descriptive phrases: He's the groups leader, he's charismatic, smart, quick, tough, strong, he uses a shield and grapples people or fires guns, patriotic, loyal, protective, freedom fighter, very moral.
How many of those things needto be represented by mechanics. He needs higher than average (ie. above a 10) stats all around, except wisdom, but particularly strength and dexterity. He needs to be really good with a Shield and CQC. Personality is not a mechanic, it's fluff. Remember in the movie he jumps on top of a car and starts telling the police what to do, they ask why they should listen to him, that's not indicative of particularly high charisma. He then shows them why they should listen to him: because he's a badass hero. Lead by example (yes, I know that's a Warlord power). Classes are representative most of "How you do things in combat", everything else is Stats and Roleplay.
Human Fighter/Gladiator Champion (I'd say freedom fighter, but I don't want to refluff escaped slave)/ED Really doesn't matter, Avatar of Freedom? Champion of Prophecy? Eternal Defender? At-Will: Shield Feint, grappling strike Encounter: Shove and Slap, Shield Edge Block, etc. Skills: Athletics, Bluff, Endurance, Streetwise Background: take your pick, Social Outcast, Con Artist, Orphan, Awakened, Desperate Loner ... Theme: Guardian. Starting Ability Scores: 16/14/16/12/10/14 (yeah, 6 higher than normal point buy, lets call him templated) Equipment: Vibranium Throwing Shield (artifact)
Wanna tell me how that's not Cap? He's not a Leader, he just leads.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection.
I agree that Captain America is only a little "l" leader. In particular, he can't be a pure Warlord because he spends a great deal of time effectively fighting solo. Warlords simply can't do that. Fighter|Warlords really can't do that either, because frankly they're particularly sucky hybrids.
To rationalize converting a comic book character into a Warlord, you'd have to find a character who only ever appears in support of other characters. Those do exist; Mr Fantastic probably is the most prominent. Cap certainly is not one of them.
Also, c'mon: Those classic mid-60s (solo) fights between Captain America and HYDRA/AIM/etc are as much rationale as Come and Get It will ever have in genre. Cap is a fighter, a defender (of liberty and justice!) pure and simple.
Where I'd disagree with Zathris is on secondary attribute. While Cap is inarguably agile, his dexterity does not always (or even often) play into his fighting style. In the meantime, Cap's core personality attribute since 1973 has been his innate sense of right and wrong. Others respect him so highly because he works harder than anyone else at being good. I'd argue this requires Wisdom as a secondary stat, even if Cap doesn't appear to have any Wisdom-based skills.
My take:
Captain America Human Fighter/Monk/Son of Mercy Str 18, Con 12, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 11 Acrobatics, Athletics, Endurance, Heal
Thor Half-Elf Battlemind/Lyrandar Wind-Rider Str 10, Con 19, Dex 13, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 17 Arcana, Endurance, Intimidate
Iron Man Genasi Fighter|Wizard/Desert's Voice Str 18, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 13 Arcana, Athletics, History (aka, Ask Jarvis[TM])
Hulk Goliath Barbarian/Goliath Juggernaut Str 18, Con 15, Dex 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10 Athletics, Endurance, Intimidate
Hawkeye Wood Elf Hunter/Seeker/Peerless Hunter Str 10, Con 13, Dex 19, Int 8, Wis 17, Cha 10 Athletics, Dungeoneering, Insight, Nature, Perception, Stealth
Black Widow Drow Rogue/Dread Fang Str 10, Con 13, Dex 19, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 17 Acrobatics, Bluff, Diplomacy, Stealth, Streetwise, Thievery
I think this is made complicated by context. If you're looking at Cap in his solo series, then yeah, he becomes very striker-y, fighting all these armies of HYDRA guys by himself and going head-to-head with some prominent baddies.
The problem is, those baddies would never be in a direct fight with the Avengers, because anyone that Cap can challenge in a straight-up fight, Thor/Hulk/Iron Man could kill in one hit (though of course they wouldn't).
Sure, he's still useful - even as a pure combatant - in a big Avengers fight...but Warlords aren't bad in a straight fight, they just don't compare to some of their teammates. Cap's main contributions to the team are 1) tactics (said to be the top mind in military strategy and tactics on Earth), and 2) inspiration - Cap is universally regarded as a symbol for the good guys, and he knows it, and he uses it. So when the fight looks unwinnable and everyone starts to lose hope, Cap stands up, raises his shield, and says "Avengers Assemble." And all of a sudden they're back on their feet and winning again.
Cap is a great fighter in his solo title, and in other small-scale things. But in the context of the Avengers - fighting the most powerful enemies in the Marvel Universe - Cap is 100% Warlord.
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
I think in some ways you'd have to make one-off rules to really show off each of these charachters, with some rules drawn from the existing rules sources and reflavored. For instance:
Captain America - You get a special item that can be used as a heavy thrown weapon, you wear leather armor, and you have an innate bonus to defenses. You are Str / Dex primary secondary. You have powers that hinder your opponents and allow you to attack when you normally wouldn't be able to do to cover or concealment. When you attack a target your allies get buffs when attacking that target.
Iron Man - You wear scale armor and your powers don't normally do a lot of damage on their own. Instead, your powers are mostly regarding forced movement though you have some other utilities that provide defensive and offensive options other than your at-will beams. You also use the psionic power point augmentation feature to power up your at-will beams to do extra damage. Not sure on scores, probably Int / Cha. You can defend and have a fly speed.
Hulk - You don't wear armor, and are usually a leader. You analyze opponents to give your allies an advantage through pointing out weaknesses in their weapons and armor. A few times a day you 'get angry,' and when this happens you grow from medium to large, you can shrug off nearly any attack through resistance and regeneration, and you get a large bonus to damage and can push or prone enemies with every attack. Str / Int maybe some Wis?
Thor - You have a hammer. It does a lot of damage. You can also use the hammer to fly and you can use the hammer to call thunder and lightning powers to use against your enemies. Str / Wis some Con. When you don't have your hammer, you are still a good fighter, though better with a weapon. Your strength is high enough that even without a wapon you are to be feared.
Hawkeye is somewhere between a Ranger, Hunter and Seeker. Black Widow is somewhere between a Rogue and an Executioner. Fury is an archery commander Warlord. Coulson gives bonuses or something. Maria Hill is obnoxious.
