|
1 year ago ::
May 07, 2012 - 11:57PM
#31
|
|
|
Is there really a debate over Cap? You can lead without being a leader, certainly the only character with a chance of having a heal-others power is Iron Man, and that may as well be Comrades Succor or "he's the one with healing potions" for all it matters in the stories. Happily give Iron Man some variant of Swordmage, or maybe Battlemind though (he definitely knows how to mark)
Cap: Fighter
Thor: Fighter (ok, Warden fits better, but you'd MC for Overwhelming Impact)
Hulk: Fighter unless you want to reflavor a greatsword as his fists.
Hawkeye: If this were 3.5 he'd also be a fighter, as is, yeah, Ranger.
Black Widow: TFS Rogue, I could buy Monk.
Closest thing they had to a "leader" is Fury, and he may as well just be a level 15 Bureaucrat. Non-"Martial" characters are the exception in stories unless they are the rule, and then it's almost always arcane, healers are almost entirely just plot devices with a couple lines.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection. My Guides
Show
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 12:11AM
#32
|
Date Joined:
Aug 16, 2005
|
Capt. America, Warlord and Fighter
Iron Man, i wonder if Swordmage and Artificier is better
Black Widow, should be an Avenger and/or Monk something wis/dex based and stealthy
Hawk-Eye, just make a Ranged Ranger
Thor, hammer and storm/lightning as long as they fit who cares what he is
Hulk, yes the fighter/babrbarian brawler and revanent goodness if that is at all possible
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 12:29AM
#33
|
Date Joined:
Jan 21, 2011
|
When did being a good leader become about healing...?
Cap is very much a Warlord. Relative to his teammates (especially Hulk, Thor, and Iron Man), he doesn't contribute much at all in terms of direct effect on the enemy. Cap contributes by coordinating the team and giving them the example to follow into battle.
Flavor-wise, the Warlord heal isn't any type of medicine, it's just the inspiration to continue fighting even when things look dire. That is exactly what Cap does in the comics all the time.
There seems to be some consensus that he's at least half fighter...where does being a lockdown defender come from? Since when does Captain America try to draw fire to himself (the normal human) when his allies (the god, the robot, and the gargantuan rage-thing) are around?
I gotta go full Warlord on this one.
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 12:44AM
#34
|
|
|
When did being a good leader become about healing...?
Cap is very much a Warlord. Relative to his teammates (especially Hulk, Thor, and Iron Man), he doesn't contribute much at all in terms of direct effect on the enemy. Cap contributes by coordinating the team and giving them the example to follow into battle.
Flavor-wise, the Warlord heal isn't any type of medicine, it's just the inspiration to continue fighting even when things look dire. That is exactly what Cap does in the comics all the time.
There seems to be some consensus that he's at least half fighter...where does being a lockdown defender come from? Since when does Captain America try to draw fire to himself (the normal human) when his allies (the god, the robot, and the gargantuan rage-thing) are around?
I gotta go full Warlord on this one.
Did you watch the movie or read any of the comic books? Cap is as much of a team player as any given x-man. When did being a good leader become about just providing CA? He runs around battering people with his shield, shooting them with guns (usually after grappling/disarming them), flanking, and generally being a distraction. When alongside the God of Thunder, a suit of Power Armor, and a guy strong enough to counter the momentum of a flying skyscraper, he appears a bit "everyman", but he's still a "Strong, Agile, Smart, Soldier." Having a decent Int and Wis with training in History and Insight doesn't make you a "Leader" by 4e terms
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection. My Guides
Show
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 4:00AM
#35
|
Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2011
|
I'm honestly lost as to how you can say "He runs around battering people with his shield, shooting them with guns (usually after grappling/disarming them), flanking, and generally being a distraction" and then turn around and say that he's not a Warlord. Captain America, to me, is pure Warlord, probably a Bravelord. Tough, capable, inspiring, leads by example, sets up his allies. Battlelord of America? Uses a Farbond Spellblade Spiked Shield. Thor is a Brutal Barrage Battlemind/Lyrandar Wind-Rider, using a hammer. Tough, hits hard, can fly, and Lightning Rush seems like a Thor thing to do(because of the diving in to protect a squishier ally thing, not the name thing, though it is fitting). The Hulk is a Barbarian|Fighter(Brawler). Grab somebody, pound them into goo. Then pound the goo. Hawkeye is a Bow Ranger. Black Widow is a TFS Rogue. Iron Man is the hard one. I'd probably go with Artificer|Warlock, though.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 4:39AM
#36
|
Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2010
|
I'm still going to maintain Cap as a Skald|Exe. He gets up in there with his damage, isn't afraid to join the combat, leads by example (Skald aura effects), is doing 1d6+1d8+mod damage at lvl one with his shield. He's definitely a striker|leader and while in a perfect world other classes may 'fit' better, mechanically he gets more out of the Skald|Exe.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 6:35AM
#37
|
|
|
Iron Man is the hard one. I'd probably go with Artificer|Warlock, though.
I was JUST going to say that. Artificer|Warlock/Self-Forged/Avangion. Avangion provides all the flying and radiant eldritch bolt lasers.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 6:42AM
#38
|
|
|
The hulk has a 1/day heal. (which he forgot about, until the end, when he was flipping though his character sheet...)
Lazer+Shield is clearly death from two sides. Cap is a warlord, probably cha-lord.
Iron man is a controller. Forced movement, nearly all ranged attacks, and a bunch of AOE that can only be cast 1/day.
guides
Show
my builds
Show
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 8:20AM
#39
|
Date Joined:
Mar 28, 2010
|
and considering how Cap in his own origin movie spent the first (months year ?) doing shows to motivate people into spending money towards the war effort ? Motivating troops ? That's straight warlord. CHA lord is also very acceptable. Though i'd make it a hybrid lazy cha-lord | fighter. Maybe even brawler fighter considering that he almost always has a free hand. Hulk is definetely rage beast, however a lot of you seem to be forgetting that one of the main attributes of the Hulk is that he doesn't take damage. Bullets bounce off him like they are nothing. I think a case could be make that he would be a Berserker. The hulk gets bigger and stronger the more angry he becomes but he also gets tougher to damage. He's not just a power house of damage. Iron Man I like the Artificer | warlock / self forged / avangion. After looking at the build itself that really does fit with Iron man. Flying, lasers, being self forged is pretty cool too. I change my vote to this. Thor being a Brutal Barrage Battlemind/Lyrandar Wind-Rider. See the thing is that Thor himself can't actually fly. He spins the hammer and launches it which makes him fly through the air and the hammer does all the work. So I'm not sure how we could translate that. Maybe just fluff. But I will admit that the battlemind does have quite a bit of lightning  .
I think everyone agrees on what Black Widow should be, TFS rogue. But I agree that a monk could also be acceptable considering that Black Widow focuses on a lot of movement based melee combat / martial arts. So I guess personal preference here however the rogue really does not offer anything that is comparable to what Black Widow does in the comics / movies in melee combat or movement or martial arts. Unless you do massive re-fluff.
Hawkeye is the bow ranger.
Does the OP want some builds ?
"Non nobis Domine Sed nomini tuo da gloriam" "I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal"
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
May 08, 2012 - 10:41AM
#40
|
|
|
Does the OP want some builds ?
I would love to see your build of Capt. America. I've been trying to piece together something but efforts have been fruitless. I was thinking about how he should be dealing damage with his shield, his unarmed strikes and still being leader-y. I might be aiming for too much though I do like the idea of Deft Hurler+Cleave+Farbond Spellblade Spiked Shield.
But from a optimization point of view, isn't Warlord bad because of their Cha primary which is a fighter's dump stat? And the other half IS going to be fighter as it has brawler and shield powers. Unless someone can point out something more appropriate.
I've also thought about using a pure sword and board fighter and changing things around as the spiked shield is a light blade and a shield. So the feats will be centered around light blades, shields and heavy thrown/ranged basic attacks. That's the closest I could find to being efficient.
Just my 2cents.
|
|
|
