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1 year ago ::
May 19, 2012 - 11:57PM
#281
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Date Joined:
Jan 14, 2006
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You seem to understand the logic yourself. You say that RAI is that it ends on an attack (I agree), but by making that argument you sound like you see how, reading it in a (maybe overly) literal way, you can sustain it and it doesn't end.
I do think the rating on it should perhaps have a sub-rating for table variation though, because anyone who values RAI will not allow the sustain to work like that.
As for OAs: "opportunity attack" is the name of a power. "Opportunity action" is an action type. It's an understandable mistake, but it's also absolutely clear that these are separate things.
A "vulnerability to opportunity attacks" doesn't sound like a vulnerability to only one written power. One can use any basic attack power as an opportunity attack, so would using a (for example) Eldritch Strike as an opportunity attack fail to trigger the vulnerability? I don't think so, maybe I'm wrong. Then again, enough off topic.
I just asked for somebody to explain me why would that power work like that. Let's not restrict this to RAI which (repeat mantra please) "is not what CharOP deals with". Let's talk about balance of the power and plain working in play. Would it be something like: "the power lets you trade your first attack in the encounter for that whole benfit the whole encounter"? Is there any other power that does something even comparable to that?
Anyway, good to acknowledge that someone else thinks that "anyone who values RAI will not allow the sustain to work like that".
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1 year ago ::
May 20, 2012 - 12:34AM
#282
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Date Joined:
Jan 21, 2011
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A "vulnerability to opportunity attacks" doesn't sound like a vulnerability to only one written power. One can use any basic attack power as an opportunity attack, so would using a (for example) Eldritch Strike as an opportunity attack fail to trigger the vulnerability? I don't think so, maybe I'm wrong. Then again, enough off topic.
I just asked for somebody to explain me why would that power work like that. Let's not restrict this to RAI which (repeat mantra please) "is not what CharOP deals with". Let's talk about balance of the power and plain working in play. Would it be something like: "the power lets you trade your first attack in the encounter for that whole benfit the whole encounter"? Is there any other power that does something even comparable to that?
Anyway, good to acknowledge that someone else thinks that "anyone who values RAI will not allow the sustain to work like that".
In regards to Black Flame Form, you are arguing that it is abundantly evident that the writers didn't intend for the sustain line to override the first part of the effect line. Erachima is arguing that, as it stands published, that is what the sustain line says.
You're not arguing the same point, and you're both correct. It's as stupid as immortality via Death's Brink Armor, though the consequence isn't nearly as broken.
As for OAs, just look at RC 246. Opportunity Attack is a power, and the Effect line is that you make an MBA. If you use Eldritch Strike as your MBA, it doesn't matter, you still got there by first using the Opportunity Attack power. Same with HBO or whatever else. "Making an opportunity attack" has a specific meaning defined on RC 246. Plus, if any opportunity action attack power was an OA, then Knights would be downright broken.
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
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1 year ago ::
May 20, 2012 - 1:02AM
#283
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Date Joined:
Jan 14, 2006
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As for OAs, just look at RC 246. Opportunity Attack is a power, and the Effect line is that you make an MBA. If you use Eldritch Strike as your MBA, it doesn't matter, you still got there by first using the Opportunity Attack power. Same with HBO or whatever else. "Making an opportunity attack" has a specific meaning defined on RC 246. Plus, if any opportunity action attack power was an OA, then Knights would be downright broken.
Good point. My RAI argument went more against the power generating the vulnerability anyway, which should have mentioned "attacks made as opportunity actions" to be o any use to Knights and Cavaliers (and my argument was that as a leader power helping defenders, it should have).
About the Black Flame thing... I guess it's a closed file. Just good luck finding a DM allowing that, and so good luck considering it gold as this guides classifies it.
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1 year ago ::
May 20, 2012 - 8:41AM
#284
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2004
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Sustain overwrites the otherwise stated duration (or else no sustain power would work). Black Flame form was improperly written such that the 'ends on attack' clause is part of the duration (lasts until the end of your nest turn or until you make an attack), instead of as a separate line (lasts until the end of your next turn. If you make an attack the form ends). Due to the improper writing, the sustain note overwrites the attack clause because it's part of the duration.
Nobody's arguing that's what was intended. Just that that's what they wrote. If your table plays by what was seems to have been intended intended instead of what was written, and if mechanical combat optimization matters at your table, DO NOT PLAY AN ASSASSIN. It's just that easy. The assassin implied by Erachima's guide here relies on not just one but MANY such hair splitting interpretations, some much more tenuous than the black flame form thing. Multiple damage roles for the triple attack powers, shroud as a separate damage roll for the invoking power to which any bonus to damage that isn't specifically a "damage bonus" applies even when it's already been applied to the powers own damage roll, etc.
The result of such questionable rules lawyering gets a character that can almost play in the same league as rangers and rogues and the like, so it's not like you're breaking the game, here, but whatev.
As for "vulnerability to opportunity attacks", 'opportunity attack' is a defined game term, and it is not defined as 'any attack made as an opportunity action'. That one's pretty straight forward.
Necromancy: Friendship is MagicSpoiler:
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1 year ago ::
May 20, 2012 - 10:23AM
#285
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If that's the case, then the Wizard utility Invisibility can be sustained even if the person who it was cast upon makes an attack. And we know that this isn't the case.
Also, since Black Flame Form lists the "duration" as "until you attack or until the end of your next turn", as soon as you attack, the form ends. Since it has ended, it cannot be sustained.
Also, the Assassin's Shroud power itself says it never benefits from bonuses to damage rolls.
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1 year ago ::
May 20, 2012 - 10:39AM
#286
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If that's the case, then the Wizard utility Invisibility can be sustained even if the person who it was cast upon makes an attack. And we know that this isn't the case.
No. Read the power! Invisibility is written in precisely the way malisteen said Black Flame Form would need to be.
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1 year ago ::
May 20, 2012 - 10:40AM
#287
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Also, since Black Flame Form lists the "duration" as "until you attack or until the end of your next turn", as soon as you attack, the form ends. Since it has ended, it cannot be sustained.
You sustain before you attack.
Also, the Assassin's Shroud power itself says it never benefits from bonuses to damage rolls.
Yes, but there are lots of things that add damage to a damage roll that aren't a "bonus to damage rolls".
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1 year ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 4:33PM
#288
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2008
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Got an official responce from Wizards customer service about how Flurry of Talons works.
| Flurry of Talons |
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| Response Via Email (Support Agent) |
06/02/2012 02:21 PM |
Hello Carl,
Thank you for contacting Wizards of the Coast Game Support! With Flurry Talons you make three attack roles. If the first attack hits and you miss the other two you roll 1d8+Dex. If you make three attack rolls and miss one of those rolls you get 2d8+Dex. If you hit on all three attacks you get to roll 3d8+Dex.
I hope this was helpful, please let us know if you have any further questions or concerns.
Take Care and Good Gaming!
We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.
To login to your account, or update your question please click here.
Marisa
Online Response Crew
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Sunday 9am-6pm PST / 12pm-9pm EST
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1 year ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 4:59PM
#289
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Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2007
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CustServ is worth nothing. They have literally a 4% success rate on answering questions properly, even on stuff that needs no clarifications.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
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1 year ago ::
Jun 02, 2012 - 10:31PM
#290
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Date Joined:
May 18, 2008
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CustServ is worth nothing. They have literally a 4% success rate on answering questions properly, even on stuff that needs no clarifications.
I'm sorry but I am going to have to believe a person who works for the company that created the game over you. You are ignoring all logic. There is no interpretation that can make this power work the way you want it to.
You flip a coin 3 times, the prize you win if you get 1 head is $1, if you get 2 heads is $2 and if you get 3 heads is $3.
What happens if you get 3 heads?
You get $3, not $6.
No one would ever give you $6 in that situation and no judge would rule in your favor.
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