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1 year ago ::
May 03, 2012 - 12:35PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Oct 25, 2007
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Assassin's Shroud's damage is "in addition" to the damage the triggering attack deals. (triggerings not the right word, but is a cleaner construct than "the attack that you were doing when you chose to invoke your shrouds"). So, depending on your reading it might not even be a separate damage instance.
Or, if you think the lightning damage from Raging Tempest is a 2nd damage instance, the shroud damage might also be ("in addition" != "extra"). And in that case, because the shroud's text says that the power does the additional damage, it's a second damage instance (that weirdly can't ever get bonuses to rolled damage) that has the relevant weapon/implement keywords that it inherited from the triggering power, and can collect other bonuses to damage. ("If you invoke your shrouds, the attack deals 1d6 damage per shroud, minus one shroud if the attack misses")
So in that sense, if it's an attack on it's own becomes almost irrelevant: it's attached to an attack already, and the only question is "is it a separate damage instance"
Shroud is clearly not extra damage, as extra damage only can add to an existing damage instance. Shroud can do damage even if the triggering attack misses, so shroud is clearly it's own damage instance. It should be errataed to a utility (like divine challenge was) or a no action (like FoB), but WoTC has largely abandonned the ossassin.
It was pretty funny though when the RC came out and Divine Challenge could maintain itself, as it was an attack power for a couple weeks.
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1 year ago ::
May 03, 2012 - 12:47PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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Why would it need to be errated to either a utility or noaction? Oh... because it's an attack, putting your shround on someone keeps you from taking advantage of a granted attacks during your turn: like Rending or Harmony Blade Ardent Champion's f16. Yeah, that's a bit annoying.
Invoking the shrouds is not an action, so that won't conflict with anything.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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1 year ago ::
May 03, 2012 - 12:50PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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Shroud is clearly not extra damage, as extra damage only can add to an existing damage instance. Shroud can do damage even if the triggering attack misses, so shroud is clearly it's own damage instance.
Er? Attacks can do damage on a miss. The shroud could be the only damage instance (in which case, yes, clearly it's a damage instance) or it could be in addition to a pre-existing damage instance. In that 2nd case, it could be extra damage, or a new damage instance. Ask your DM. *shrug* (And if he says it's extra damage, consider playing an avenger instead.  )
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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1 year ago ::
May 03, 2012 - 12:52PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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Erachima's reminded me that, by the same point above where I pointed out that the damage from invoking your shrouds is added to another power. Placing the shrouds does no damage. Therefore, the power is a utility.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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1 year ago ::
May 03, 2012 - 12:55PM
#25
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Even if it was, rending and harmony are no actions.
guides
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my builds
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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1 year ago ::
May 03, 2012 - 1:01PM
#26
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Placing the shrouds does no damage. Therefore, the power is a utility.
This is the part I don't get...lots of Utility Powers deal damage, and lots of Attack Powers don't. So why would damage-dealing be the test used to reclassify FoB (for instance) as an Attack rather than Utility, when the power itself is only labeled a Class Feature?
Look at something like Punitive Radiance, for instance:
Punitive Radiance
Show
Punitive Radiance Feat Utility
The punishment you levy on the unrighteous is visible from miles away.
Encounter Divine, Radiant
Free Action
Requirement: You must have the feat Light of Order in order to use this power.
Trigger: You hit an enemy with an attack
Target: The triggering enemy
Effect: The target takes 1d6 extra radiant damage. Additionally, the target grants combat advantage and cannot benefit from invisibility until the end of your next turn.
Level 11: 2d6 radiant damage.
Level 21: 3d6 radiant damage.
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1 year ago ::
May 03, 2012 - 1:11PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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There's a rule in the Rules Compendium that says, paraphrased because I'm away from books:
"All powers are either attacks or utilities. If it's labeled one of those, then thereyago. If it isn't labeled as either an attack or utility, but has a target and deals damage, then it's an attack. Otherwise, it's a utility."
So Punitive Radiance is a utility, because it says utility.
Flurry of Blows says Feature, so you have to apply other tests to determine if it's an attack or a utility.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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1 year ago ::
May 03, 2012 - 1:14PM
#28
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There's a rule in the Rules Compendium that says, paraphrased because I'm away from books:
"All powers are either attacks or utilities. If it's labeled one of those, then thereyago. If it isn't labeled as either an attack or utility, but has a target and deals damage, then it's an attack. Otherwise, it's a utility."
So Punitive Radiance is a utility, because it says utility.
Flurry of Blows says Feature, so you have to apply other tests to determine if it's an attack or a utility.
Thanks -- that's what I was looking for.
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1 year ago ::
May 03, 2012 - 1:59PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Feb 23, 2012
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The feat itself says you only apply the feat to one of the targets. It does not say that it changes FoB to only target one target if there is more than one. It does not say that you change the other features of the power. With Centered FoB it would still slide. With Desert Wind FoB it would still apply the -2 to attack the monk if it was not the target of the triggering attack. It does not make the DW FoB stop being fire.
Remember, the feat does what it says no more no less. It changes direct damage to ongoing damage for one target. It does not remove targets from FoB. It does not remove any other effects from FoB. It does not remove keywords from FoB. At most, depending on DM interpretation, it might change the damage into ongoing untyped damage. But then when that feat was written, no FoB did anything other than untyped. However, they still had effects which the feat did not remove.
It is a perfectly valid interpretation to state that the only thing that changes, for a single target and not any other targets, is that the normal damage changes to ongoing but keeps the fire damage.
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1 year ago ::
May 03, 2012 - 2:29PM
#30
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Remember, the feat does what it says no more no less.
This is true, which is why:
"The target instead takes ongoing damage equal to the damage that you would have dealt to it with the power."
Ongoing damage without a specified type is untyped damage. Why would it be fire damage, when the feat says it's not?
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