The key to silence spells is to make it a penalty, not an off-switch. If the rule were that spells could be cas silently at a penalty. then areas of silence create an obstacle like fog hindering ranged combat, rather than a wall preventing it.
The key to silence spells is to make it a penalty, not an off-switch. If the rule were that spells could be cas silently at a penalty. then areas of silence create an obstacle like fog hindering ranged combat, rather than a wall preventing it.
Off-switch is fine, as long as it only turns a few things off. (i.e. turn off the light in the room, not kill the electicity to the house).
"you can't use encounter powers" is a reasonable off-switch. "you can't spend a surge" is a reasonable off switch. "you can't move" is a reasonable off-switch. "you can't use immidiate action" is a reasonable off-switch. "you can't use this small sub-set of powers" is a reasonable off-switch.
That said, if a power has both somatic and vocal components, it should be HARDER to shut down.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
The key to silence spells is to make it a penalty, not an off-switch. If the rule were that spells could be cas silently at a penalty. then areas of silence create an obstacle like fog hindering ranged combat, rather than a wall preventing it.
I've said this before, but after reading the last ten posts I feel I must say it again: Why can't there be an off switch on occassion for your spells, sword swings, etc? I find it baffling that the players on this board can't think of anything else to do other than swing a sword or cast a spell.
I also find it belittling that no one here is choosing to mention the all sorts of off switches built into Encounters and Lair Assualt these days. It seems people think these off switches don't exist in 4e. Last Encounter I was at, I, the monk, jumped up on a barn loft, charged the bad wizard/demon, used my Encounter power doing it, and voila - he poofed into smoke and appeared elsewhere. I rolled an 18. I hit. But his ability allowed him to do that. In Lair Assualt my wizard ran up to about 10 minions and AOE'd their arses. Nope. One guy sacrificed himself, so the other 9 minions were free to escape the area. Boom. My daily was gone.
Why can't there be an off switch on occassion for your spells, sword swings, etc? I find it baffling that the players on this board can't think of anything else to do other than swing a sword or cast a spell.
It has nothing to do with being incapable of coming up with other things to do, but with being forced to come up with other things to do.
My brother wanted to play a rogue. The DM decided he wanted my brother's character to be the chosen warrior of Khunshu, the moon goddess. Could my brother have figured out stuff to do as a divine warrior? Of course. Does that mean that's what he wanted? No.
If I play a spellcaster, I would like to cast spells. I don't need a DM to tell me that I'm really supposed to play something else.
I also find it belittling that no one here is choosing to mention the all sorts of off switches built into Encounters and Lair Assualt these days.
Wow, talk abut a lack of imagination. There's a difference between inventing a unique encounter and inventing a mechanic that is to be inserted repeatedly in the game.
An antimagic encounter specifically designed for a single adventure? Fine. A spell designed to nullify casters results in rocket tag game design. There is a difference.
It seems people think these off switches don't exist in 4e.
It seems some people imagine they hav telepathic powers they don't actually possess. NOBODY is saying you can't design whatever you want. But we're not discussing that. But thanks for letting us watch you flog the straw man. That's always fun.
Why can't there be an off switch on occassion for your spells, sword swings, etc? I find it baffling that the players on this board can't think of anything else to do other than swing a sword or cast a spell.
It has nothing to do with being incapable of coming up with other things to do, but with being forced to come up with other things to do.
My brother wanted to play a rogue. The DM decided he wanted my brother's character to be the chosen warrior of Khunshu, the moon goddess. Could my brother have figured out stuff to do as a divine warrior? Of course. Does that mean that's what he wanted? No.
If I play a spellcaster, I would like to cast spells. I don't need a DM to tell me that I'm really supposed to play something else.
I also find it belittling that no one here is choosing to mention the all sorts of off switches built into Encounters and Lair Assualt these days.
Wow, talk abut a lack of imagination. There's a difference between inventing a unique encounter and inventing a mechanic that is to be inserted repeatedly in the game.
An antimagic encounter specifically designed for a single adventure? Fine. A spell designed to nullify casters results in rocket tag game design. There is a difference.
It seems people think these off switches don't exist in 4e.
It seems some people imagine they hav telepathic powers they don't actually possess. NOBODY is saying you can't design whatever you want. But we're not discussing that. But thanks for letting us watch you flog the straw man. That's always fun.
I do enjoy a good straw man flogging from time to time.
But, what you and I disagree on are how silence is used, not what it is.
You say, what's wrong with developing a unique encounter. So the wizard has a spell that completely negates my opening encounter move and makes it worthless. I say, it's nothing but a silence spell under a different name that is attached to a creature. I don't know, maybe you haven't played with thoughtful DM's that don't abuse their power. Not sure. But, I know that the ability the demon I fought had can be transferred to any creature via monster builder. What if every creature had that? My god, how could they put that in the game? After all, it completely negates all strong warrior attacks. Cry foul.
No. That power, and many others like it, are just as bad as a silence spell. The only difference is whether you have a DM that will use it to create tension and a unique situation, or if you have someone that throws it out everytime just to be a douche.
I am happy to discuss my ideas and positions with anybody who treats me courteously. Please let me know when you're ready to stop telling me what I think, speculating on my experiences, and trying to read subtext instead of the actual text. I'm not going to have a discussion with someone who can only manage thinly veiled insults and straw man arguments.
I am happy to discuss my ideas and positions with anybody who treats me courteously. Please let me know when you're ready to stop telling me what I think, speculating on my experiences, and trying to read subtext instead of the actual text. I'm not going to have a discussion with someone who can only manage thinly veiled insults and straw man arguments.
-wrecan
Wrecan,
Sorry, if you feel I insulted you. It was not my intention. And I did readily admit to using a straw man argument once you pointed it out. That opening line was to say, "Oops," not to be condescending.
As for silence, you implied in your message that it creates a rocket tag game. That it will be used repeatedly. Those are your words. I merely contest, that with a thoughtful DM, it will not be used that way. And in fact, when used correctly, will add to the game's dynamics.
As for speculating on your experiences, that was wrong of me and I apologize.
The problem is, if the party caster knows the other caster has a spell that shuts off his powers, then his only option is to kill him or cancel his casting before the other guy does, which comes down to a battle of whoever hits with his spell first is going to win.
And the other question is how you should use such a thing properly. From what I've seen, anti-magic seems to be a slap-on fix to keep magic from solving every problem. But used too much and it just starts seeming like you're gunning against magic users specifically. As long as 5e's magic users aren't broken, anti-magic shouldn't have as much of a use.
The problem is, if the party caster knows the other caster has a spell that shuts off his powers, then his only option is to kill him or cancel his casting before the other guy does, which comes down to a battle of whoever hits with his spell first is going to win.
This isn't a univeral truism for all editions. For instance, this isn't really the case in 1E. Probably is in 3E, casters went crazy there. In 1E, silence is a 2nd level Cleric spell, and grants a saving throw if it's cast on an unwilling subject. If the save is made then it acts as if it were cast on the ground next to you, and you can easily move out of the area of effect in a fraction of a round. The spell also takes half a round to cast, which makes it virtually unusable in melee and, if you have a ranged weapon, simple enough to disrupt. It's got a verbal component, so you'll hear him casting it. If you do get hit with it, you retreat before he can cast his next spell, or continue fighting with consumable magic items. And, of course, clerics in 1E just don't get a lot of offensive damage spells, so he's highly unlikely to be able to kill the party just because he silenced the caster. If he's a high-level cleric, you're either a high-level caster, or you ran away before he started casting. If you're a high-level caster, you're quite likely to save - his spells don't get harder to save against as he levels, and you get better at saving. He's inconvenienced the party for that particular combat, which will be over in 5 minutes - not really enough for the party caster to get bored, even if he doesn't have a wand or whatever to use - which, at high level, he more than likely will.
So, silence effects can work, as long as the rest of the system isn't messed up.
As for silence, you implied in your message that it creates a rocket tag game. That it will be used repeatedly. Those are your words. I merely contest, that with a thoughtful DM, it will not be used that way.
The rules dictate behavior. If silence shuts down a majority of spellcasters' spells, then both players and NPCs should be using it regularly. If the DM decides not to have the NPCs doing it, then he has to make his NPCs tougher to compensate for the players doing it to them.
Spells that operate like on-off switches result in rocket tag. That's because the winner is first one to flip the other guy's switch. This results in a couple phenomena.
First, the casters and weapon-users end up playing different games. While the weapon-users are trying to whittle down the enemies' hp, the casters are tryign to flip swicthes. In such scenarios, unless the DM rigs things to shut down the spellcasters, a switch gets flipped before hp gets depleted. This can be very unsatisfying to the weapon-users, who end up relegated to mopping up the lesser villains that the caster doesn't want to waste spell slots on. That contributes to D&D feeling more like a game of spellcasters and sidekicks.
Second, the DM shouldn't have to spend his thoughts on trying to counter the casters all the time. He should be spending his time crafting the best storyline he possibly can,without having to concern himself that some spell is going to render that plot inoperative. It's a waste of DM resources. Which is why silence as an off-switch is a bad idea, unless used in a single encounter for a change of pace.
I somewhat agree with Kaldric. In AD&D, silence was intended to be like a spell-specific difficult terrain. However, often, in AD&D, it didn't work that way. First, clever players quickly came up with ways around the saving throw. For instance, silence would be placed on a coin, which the rogue would then place in the caster's purse. The coin then travels with the caster, and the only way to get rid of it is to cast off his treasure. Second, the spell had a 10-foot radius, which made it ideal for fighting casters in hallways. Often, the caster had no choice but to leave the battle. If silence was designed to serve as terrain, that would be great. In fact, that's exactly what I suggested. All I'm saying is that functionally, AD&D and 3e silence wasn't merely terrain. It was an on/off switch. It was the closest you got to antimagic before 13th level.
If you want silence, don't make it an on/off switch. Make it hampering terrain, but not debilitating terrain. If you want silence that totally shuts someone down, make it a unique encounter, not a spell that can be used repeatedly.
