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I've got an issue and I can't figure it out without aid!
i'm about to join a friends setting for 4th Edition, the problem is that he has incorporated certain house rules which affect character choices and because this is a unique setting, there are a few complications. He actually creates his own settings/systems as a hobby and has even made his own roleplay system for sale so it's not an amateur thing by any means. Currently the group has a rogue, a hexxer (DM designed class, like I said it's his setting, but it's a controller class), a cleric and one other class that I can't recall, but I think it's a striker class. So basically they're missing an effective tank/defender class and I thought a paladin would be cool. However I was wondering if for a paladin (or a warlord maybe) it was possible to make one that was ranged rather than melee dominated. Or failing that, whether it's possible for a paladin or warlord to survive in lighter armour. However here a few complications as I mentioned. I can't go through them all, but here's a summary of various major changes or considerations that I'm facing. The only defender classes allowed are fighter and paladin (no warden). MULTICLASSING IS ALLOWED BUT HYBRIDS ARE NOT ALLOWED. Not all races are allowed and the DM has designed some of his own to fit with the setting (which are good I'll admit), but in terms of stats it does limit me to a + 2 INT / + 2 CHA or a +2 INT / + 2 WIS or a Human setup as it fits with the role that I'm hoping to join into (a deposed spymaster so Insight, Diplomacy and potentially Bluff would be good). I did consider a Warlord which have no changes from the PHB version but with a cleric in the party I don't know if a warlord is entertaining to play in general or whether it's really needed considering we have no defender, plus they seem to be melee orientated only and thus require a fair bit of armour (i.e. not relying on Dex or Int much, but I could be wrong on that). The setting takes places on land and at sea, and sea warfare does come into play so there's the hazard of being able to swim. Paladins tend to wear tonnes of armour so I'm a bit screwed if at any time I fall into the water. I've never seen anyone play a lightly armoured paladin. Granted this might mean that enemies will also be less armoured than before, but there's no certainty. It's been set in a pre-industrial age where the basic firearms have been invented. The rules for them look good and balanced and I do have a feat option of being trained in them as a paladin even, but to summarise it means there will be more things that target Reflex, something which a paladin is generally bad at! Two major house rule changes are that you can only spend a healing surge using an item or power (suddenly leaders/paladins become so much more useful) and that you also have to BEAT a defense score when hitting, NOT EQUAL so suddenly being able to hit got slightly harder on both sides. One big change for clerics/paladins is that depending on their deity (which are new to the setting) they are (a) given minor damage bonuses with their favoured weapon and (b) their damage type changes to the type favoured by their deity so I'm not stuck with radiant any more. I was hoping to create something a bit like the North Watch in Game of Thrones. So an emphasis on cold and I know of the Frostcheese combo. New deities for the setting have been invented which means my domain choices now vary, though the Winter domain doesn't impress me that much particularly as I can now easily change my damage type to cold without much issue. One new paragon class that has been made for the setting is very "cold" based. In fact it's special rule is that if the divine class is only wearing cloth armour, they gain Cold Resist 15, Necrotic Resist 5 and +2 AC. . . . . whether that's broken or not is another thing, but could that potentially offset the issue of having to wear lighter armour given the drowning issue with wearing heavy plate mail? The powers for the paragon class vary in terms of usefulness but it does have an awesome Level 11 power to really screw over someone who hit you within 10 squares as an encounter interrupt. So basically I know these are changes which 4E Optimization people aren't used to but I don't want a discussion on whether they are good or bad. I'm interested to know if a ranged paladin or warlord is possible, whether a lightly armoured paladin or warlord is possible and I suppose which of the two could fit into a spymaster role better.
Would a swordmage be allowed? That currently the only effective ranged defender.
Do you have access to the splatbooks (Martial Power, Martial Power 2, etc?) If so, there is a ranged Warlord build in MP2 (I believe) which gives you some nice options for making this guy ranged. For one thing, you give up your light shield and chainmail proficiency for being able to use your STR modifier in place of DEX for making RBAs. There are a fair few Warlord powers which are Ranged weapon now, as well.
Making a ranged Paladin is doable, you just have to make a ranged attack against your Divine Challenge target each time your turn comes around or that mark ends. Get a nice heavy thrown weapon (and make sure STR is your high stat...)
A swordmage is allowed and there are no changes from their original rules. But I've never looked at them so I've little to no knowledge on them. One previous campaign did have someone who I think did a multiclass Swordmage with something else and he was basically a mass damage dealing thunder AOE munchkin! :P
I have access to all official splat books (but no Psionics) and if something comes from a Dragon Magazine I have to run it past the DM first to check it's not horribly broken. I'll have a quick look at the MP2 build you just mentioned.
Given your wacky restrictions, I doubt anyone counts as "damage dealing", much less a "mass damage dealing thunder AOE munchkin". Especially since there is absolutely nothing multiclass swordmage has to offer a build that wanted to do that.
But yes, Swordmage is pretty much exactly what you want here. They're kitey defenders.
The way Swordmages work depends on the type. All Swordmages basically want to mark one target then starts attacking a different target and keep away from the original.
Shielding Swordmages are the only 100% ranged ones. When an enemy attacks ayone other than them, they reduce the damage by a certain amont. Assault Swordmages will teleport next to their target and pop them in the face for violating the mark. Ensaring Swordmages do the reverse of Assault and teleport te eemy to tem when they violate the mark.
Cool info thanks.
The sea battles and ranged firearms weren't in the last campaign, but the house rules on surges, hitting defenses and deities were still present. I'll have to investigate the swordmage in more detail. First impressions is that it's a cool class and could work for defending, but would suck as a spymaster.
Quick question:
Is your character going to be anything like Sebban Balwer? I always liked him as a character and think it would be a fun guy to roleplay as.
Errr, hard to say as I've never heard of him before looking him up on Google! :P
In terms of a spymaster, it's mainly because apart from the cleric I'm williing to bet no-one in the party has any diplomacy skills at all and even then I'm not certain the cleric actually went particularly high in that stat. Diplomacy and Insight I like as skills (not a big fan of Intimidate) so obviously a spymaster would like them and with a background or human racial skill it would be possible to obtain Bluff. A Skirmisher Warlord is looking tempting on the prospect that I can use firearms instead of bows, wear lighter armor and have some spymaster skills easily - the only flaw being that in terms of enjoyment I'm not sure if it's a "hoot" to play! :D
One quick question on firearms: does your DM plan on including anything for bayonnetes? I think that could be the key point for turning a swordmage into a magical musketeer (which I think is an awesome concept to play). As people have said, swordmages are the only defenders that can truly excel at ranged defending, and a rifle with a bayonette probably qualified as your sword for when in melee, while still functioning as in implement for your other spells (many of which can now be reflavored as "shooting magic." Like the Gunmage from Iron Kingdoms).
On warlords: I know there's a feat that makes a few warlord powers usable as ranged attacks, with the aim (no pun intended) of expanding the scope of the skirmisher warlord. Good lcuk - this game sounds like fun.
I like that idea with bayonettes. It could be feasible, I'll have to check with him, I've asked him for a list of the firearms he's designed.
I'll look for that feat as well, that might be a useful turning point as the warlord suits the spymaster character more (but then so does a musketeer, just a shame Swordmages shun Charisma................)
If you're looking for a ranged defender, a skirmishing Warlord is not really what you want. It's a pretty pure leader, with a side of strike, not a defender.
True true. :-( I would hope the Cleric could fullfill the leader stuff reliably.
Ideally I'd love a Paladin, but I have to make a choice between finding a way to make a lightly armoured paladin work or going crazy and getting the full plate mail and just hope to dear god I don't fall off a ship in the sea as Athletics checks would be nigh on impossible for me to make even though one house rule is that we are allowed to use Athletics with CON instead of STR if we so choose. Swordmage is a tempting prospect, I just wish they didn't hate Charisma so much as then I could have played a high INT, high CHA, high STR/CON Swordmage which would mean I'd be sorted for the spymaster role whilst still being a defender. I'm hoping Rahk's idea about bayonette's will hold water in that regard.
Hmmm, Riposte Rogue?
You'd have the Spy-like things covered from the rogue half, grab Vigilante Justice for the wannabe defender bit. Your ranged options would mostly be throwing a dagger. Probably not as defendery (or tough) as you want though. EDIT: Oh yeah, rogues can play nicely with slings and crossbows if you want some other ranged options.
What level?
Fighter MC wizard can work quite well. Attack with a burst/blast, mark everyone, get mark penalty boosters, possibly add psycic lock or something as well. You can be handing out -5/7 to hit.
Swordmages don't hate CHA that much. It's certainly not as important as your primary and secondary, but your tertiary is generally WIS or CHA for the will boost.
It's not optimal, but you can certainly be functional dropping CON a bit for a higher CHA and hope your DM designs monsters more like MM2 than MM3.
Level I believe is 8 and we would certainly be hitting paragon level eventually.
I've been checking out the possibility of a swordmage which takes Arcane Mutterings so that all the social skills bounce off Arcana. That seems insanely good for what I'm after! That way I get the defender role, I get to level up the primary/secondary stats easily, put a tertiary in Wisdom to get Will and bonuses to Insight and then still use the social skills with Arcana which being a swordmage will be boosted up to silly levels. Alternatively forget that and just favour CHA in place of WIS. One of the newly designed races gives + 2 INT and + 2 CHA, has a racial bonus to Will defense and a very nice racial encounter power that allows me on interrupt of being hit with an attack to change the target defense to Will and if the attack misses as a result, the guy gets blinded (quite broken I think! :P) Oh yeah and he has + 2 Arcana and +2 Insight. For a Swordmage I'm liking this idea. Looked at sorcerors as well as they are allowed. Ok I'd have to sacrifice the defender role, but CHA wise, they are sorted. Probably a "if nothing else works" option though as I believe we're probably fine for damage potential! EDIT - ahh I'm afraid the bayonette thing got shot down..........ah well good try. I got the rules for firearms as well. Guns Table {All guns are now Martial Ranged Weapons, not Superior} Old Flintlock 4D6 +0 Wis vs. Ref Full Action Reload, Diminishing, Powered. Lever Action 3D6 +2 Wis vs. Ref Slow Reload, Diminishing, Powered, Hi-Crit. Musket Break Action 2D6 +2 Wis vs. Ref Minor Reload, Diminishing, Powered. Handgun Break Action 4D6 +2 Wis vs. Ref Full Action Reload, Diminishing, Powered. Shotgun
Personally I'm not too afraid that I'm going to have trouble with guns! :-)
Glad you like the bayonette idea. It was part of a homebrew I never quite finished for a Wild West themed D&D setting. (Friggin complaint that it's "Arabian Nights and not Wild West" if I don't completely ban melee weapons. Redesigning all the melee classes. Grumble). Back on topic, glad to inspire. As far as low diplomacy - yeah, definitely go with Arcane Mutterings. You may want to consider a multiclass into sorcerer or something anyway, just to pick up an RBA power. You're hardly a musketeer if you've got a terrible RBA, right? Eh, I guess as long as you specialize in ranged attacks you're fine. A bard multiclass might not be a bad idea - pick up Diplomacy and the ability to pick up some bard rituals. There's one called Call of Friendship that's quite powerful, and since you can substitute Arcana for Diplomacy if you pick up Arcane Mutterings, you've got more or less an "I win" button attached to one Arcana check.
EDIT: Oh yeah, if you expect to hit paragon soon enough, you can bump Cha at the cost of Con a little. Take Greater Aegis of Shielding at level 11 to block an extra 5 damage with Aegis of Shielding. EDIT 2: There's also the feat Building Comraderie, for a cummulative +1 Diplomacy each time you succeed. Maybe it's not really worth it, but just pointing out - use Arcane Mutterings to try to boost your first Diplomacy check, and then your subsequent ones aren't so bad. More of a backup plan than an optimized version, but it's there.
Unfortunately the bayonet thing got shot down :-( Ah well nice try. Appparently a swordmage is still an option although the DM has seen loads of them used so he'd like a change. He's happy for me to try a paladin, but the best way to make him not have to wear plate mail involves having to up the Dex and use Hide armour until I get the Black Ice paragon path.........which I have to admit only makes me 1 AC worse off than plate despite wearing cloth plus it gives me all the juicy cold resist/necrotic resist and other power options including one at level 16 which makes my cold attacks irresistable! :-)
I'd like the pally I'd suppose more as he's a natural diplomat, not one that has to use a power to do it. Plus I think our last swordmage used that Arcana power so I'd just be copying what he did which is just boring. I reckon I might be able to find a way, especially I don't think guns are that powerful in the system as I originally feared! :P
Are there some house rules for swimming that you haven't mentioned? Because otherwise the ONLY hindrance any armor applies to swimming is the armor check penalty to athletics, and plate is only 1 point worse than hide armor, and can be ignored with the armor finesse feat to completely remove the penalty, and shield finesse also if using a shield.
A low strength character (especially one not trained in athletics) is going to have a hard time swimming regardless of what armor they are wearing.
Can't recall the exact rules, but he did mention that he ruled a much bigger minus figure on Athletics checks to swim in scale mail for someone who nearly died in his last campaign. Basically I think it's harder in this system to swim in plate mail............which makes sense considering how heavy the bloody thing is! :P
In response to the OP, paladin does have a few ranged punishment powers (Price of cowardice, ray of reprisal), plus you can sanction the room and punish them at any range. Granted your punishments won't exactly be earth shattering, but it's a little zap of damage and -2 to hit.
fair do's in fact, probably easier to ignore being ranged, I'm not too fussed about that any more. :-) The issue is do I stick to normal plate mail tank armour despite being on boats at see, or is there a legit way that wearing light armour with a high dex could work? There is apparently another house rule that gives a further +2 to a stat if I write a particularly good background (he encourages a good back story and roleplay) so suddenly the MAD issue isn't as apparent any more.
Plus bear in mind if I go for the Winter domain and take his new Black Ice Ascendant paragon path later, if I wear cloth armour, I get + 2 AC anyway plus the mass amounts of Cold/Necrotic resists. So with a decent enough dex (to up the AC in light armour) my AC doesn't suffer much compared to plate mail yet I'll be more "agile" when at sea battles.
I like Tiefling Paladins. You go Cha primary, take Wrath of the Crimson Legion, Call of Challenge, and Valorous Smite. It's not quite ranged, but it's the ability to mark multiple enemies while not standing next to them.
In the house ruling realm, I'd love a Beastmaster Ranger who's pet has an aura that allows him to punish (and use the Sentinel / FBT rules for the companion).
How harsh is your access to items? A Floating Shield is a level 1 item, literally as cheap as you can get for a non-consumable, and it'll solve your swimming worries altogether.
Tieflings not in this setting I'm afraid. But it's ok I have a race I can take that's half decent
+ 2 CON + 2 CHA (remember I get +2 again somewhere for a decent background) + 2 Arcana (ok a waste) + 2 Insight +1 Will defence racial Aid Another provides + 3 when used with a knowledge check. Encounter power: - if hit, change target defence to Will - if it misses you blind the attacker - SWEET! Access to items is standard. I get a certain amount of money and being Level 7 or 8 I'll have whatever is normal (up to 7-8 levels of items so 1 big item or several smaller items). That floating shield sounds perfect. The more I try to build a dexturous paladin, the more it fails abysmally! :P Chaladins should be tanked in armour, it's the right way to go! :-) The shield would be a nice item to have for this kind of campaign where water is abundant! Edit : - hard to resist going for human though...........extra at will power and feat and skill is dam good!!
Maybe try a Half-Elf Paladin?
Dilettante - One of the Skald at-will auras Master of Stories (Bard MC) Serene Archery (Requires you to worship Sehanine) - Allows you to use Wisdom for your RBAs You can sit back and buff your party by shooting arrows at your enemy. Because you'll be Wisdom primary, you'll have many uses of Lay on Hands. Group Defense or Bitter Challenge can make your mark more intimidating in Heroic, and the Hospitaler PP can make it very good. The Duelist's Bow and Cloak of Distortion can make it more difficult for ranged enemies to engage you. Take all Implement Encounters and Dailies. It will be more difficult for you to fight in melee, and you would primarily be a support unit. Ideally, the targets you mark will not actually be able to reach you, and you will be using your mark often. You can use a two-handed ranged weapon or a one-handed ranged weapon if you'd like to use a shield. There are Scales of War background benefits that allow you to gain proficiency with a military weapon. If you can obtain Corellon's boon, then you could be a Cha/Wis race instead of a Half-Elf. Your Fortitude and Reflex are pretty low to start with this build. If you have a Cloak of Distortion and a Duelist's Bow or Heavy Shield, your effective reflex will be much higher than your natural reflex
Another issue has arisen - Paladin's don't have Bluff.......as far as I'm aware you can only get Bluff by multi-classing Warlock and I'd be stuck with the Star Pact..........any other ways to get Bluff?
Arena fighter would be a light armor wearing, high AC defender.
Half-elf paladin with hand of radiance, mighty crusader expertise and a bradaman's weapon. 2 challenges at once which you enforce with your hand of radiance which doesn't prevoke.
Depending on starting level, seconding the idea that paragon multiclassing from Fighter to Wizard will give you a mass marking, ranged capable build. The only issue is that you don't really have a way to punish from range, but that probably won't be an issue, since besides Swordmage or Paladin/Hospitaler you won't really find a good means of defending allies from ranged only attack.
Alternatively, Arena or Great Weapon fighter and use a Hungry/Farbond weapon with Deft Hurler. Gives you close up coverage plus the ability to cause havoc at range. Or both, if the situation demands.
Arena fighter could be worth a shot. In fact my choices are a little easier now that I've got some more info on the rest of the party. Apparently whether due to their style or their class, a few of them have already gone down the Charisma route, our rogue in particular is a good Cha rogue.
Which means I don't need to worry about social any more. So a generic fighter or a Straladin is now a good option. Arena fighter I'll have a look in and I'll also check out a Straladin. Annoyingly I can't be a unique race unless I'm Human, we already have a dwarf rogue and the new invented race which is a potential beatstick race we already have 2 of. Edit - Who's had experience with an arena fighter? Doesn't look like much to me, I mean who uses improvised weapons anyway?
Pick the gouge and the mordenkrad and now all your slides and pushes are extended by 1.
And there is the paragon feat that if you miss with an attack and deal no damage, you do your dex mod damage to them. Kind of like hammer rhythm but it affects any arena weapon you are using. The one idea I had was take a flail/scourge and the craghammer. Take flail expertise, dragging flail, and bludgeon expertise. You can now either prone slide 2 or slide 2 if you use the flail. You can take Crossbow and your melee weapon of choice and pick up Crossbow Expertise. Now you ignore partial and superior cover with your attacks.
On the Arena Fighter; Beyond attempting to break everything, the Arena Fighter can be a ton of fun in a swashbuckling game. They are as comfortable in light armor as they are in heavy, and can kill with any thing they happent to pick up (or even their bare fists).
With the Swordmage and ranged, a Shielding Swordmage with the Wandering Swordmage Paragon Path should actually be close to what you are thinking. Still put points in to CON but also split points in to WIS. At 11 you'll then add your WIS mod to the size of your Aegis burst, meaning you can mark from farther away. You'll also have a boost to your Insight, which is one of the things you wanted and is a class skill. Arcane Mutterings will handle some Diplomacy or you can Multiclass/Skill Train for it too.
In this setting, a swordmage is going to look/play VERY differently than in a standard setting if that idea is still on the table.
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