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Apr 25, 2012 -- 2:34PM, kilpatds wrote:

Given that you're sticking with UA: man up and take the OA.  Your AC is defender level here.

While it may be cool to be manly, I disagree with the optimality of drawing AoOs here.  Taking an extra attack to get a bit of extra damage isn't worth it.

Apr 25, 2012 -- 2:34PM, kilpatds wrote:

Twin Striker gets RS and FA during first two rounds.  So that's ~2 attacks more over say 4 rounds?  Another effective 14 effective DPR? (Lose Wis on FA, gain it a second time on RS)

The (proning) Eldritch Avenger doesn't need to charge, it's just an option (which gives additional DPR, not counted above).  It can move, MBA, minor just like the Twin Avenger.  The Twin Avenger has slightly higher modifiers, the Eldritch Avenger has a prone enemy to minor attack on. Remember that you need to use a minor to Oath your target (I often forget).

The Persistant Tail (move action), charge (standard) strategy is no longer nessasary, now that the Eldritch Avenger prones with its attack.  It's still useful if your foe can stand up as a minor action.

You have two minor attacks, Fury's Advance and the Sohei one.  You can afford to not charge on the turns they are available.

Relentless Strike is another matter (see below)

Apr 25, 2012 -- 2:34PM, kilpatds wrote:

So vs. a monster that's careful, you're doing ~39 DPR (34.4 w/ MBA, plus censure).  I'm doing 42 (~56 including my increased ability to use off-actions) Vs. a monster that's not, you're doing around 67.

There is no "being careful".  The monster is prone next to you.  As long as your teammates are competant, most monsters of this level have to attack you or lose their turn.  Yes, you can be dazed, but I suspect less than 10% of your turns will be spent dazed.  Yes, some monsters can teleport while prone, but that sort of thing can't be very common.  The Eldritch Avenger should be doing ~67 damage almost every round.  Even more when you minor action attack.

Apr 25, 2012 -- 2:34PM, kilpatds wrote:

A standard of 12th level has around 110 hp or so.  So it takes me three rounds to knock one over with pure-at will, two including some encounters.  It takes you two rounds to do it with pure-at will.

The Formula for hitpoints according to the DPS Kings Thread is 24+(8*level) = 120 at level 12.  This is what I've been calculating KPR from.

Apr 25, 2012 -- 2:34PM, kilpatds wrote:

To guess at the cost/value of overkill, it'd take a lot more work.  Have to look into that later.  What's your total crit contribution?
 

I'll note a different sort of overkill: You kill a monster during your turn, or before it's turn with a granted attack.  Now you don't get to use WLMR, wasting that damage.  On the other hand, it's a great time to use Relentless Stride (+Holy Blessing).  This is similar to killing a monster with the first blow of your Twin Strike (since presumably there isn't another monsters next to you to hit, given Oath)

Apr 25, 2012 -- 6:33PM, kilpatds wrote:

Apr 25, 2012 -- 6:25PM, billyh wrote:

There is no "being careful".  The monster is prone next to you.  As long as your teammates are competant, most monsters of this level have to attack you or lose their turn.

I understand what you're saying here... I just disagree strongly.  I think you need to look at more skirmishers.  (Brutes?  Yeah, brutes are typically screwed.  As are artillery.  Skirmishers and Lurkers, OTOH, will not follow your anti-tofu program)

Apr 25, 2012 -- 6:25PM, billyh wrote:

Yes, you can be dazed, but I suspect less than 10% of your turns will be spent dazed.

But this causes me to break out in laughter.  Too much LFR, I guess.

Apr 25, 2012 -- 6:25PM, billyh wrote:

 Yes, some monsters can teleport while prone, but that sort of thing can't be very common.

And also this.  Again, probably to much LFR.

Edit: to be fair to LFR, I mostly mean "too many Y1 and Y2 LFR mods"  Y3 and Y4 are much much better about not perma-dazing you.

What percentage of creatures can teleport while prone?
How else are Lurkers and Skirmishers getting away?  (i.e. do they have stand up as minor AND shift 3 as a move?)  Do these escape mechanisms trigger Censure? 

I bet if you are getting Censure + Charge you are almost even with a Twin Avenger in damage (on non-minor action attack rounds), and this is a corner case (most enemies can't do this).  There is no "being careful".  Either the monster has a trick for getting away or it doesn't.

Apr 25, 2012 -- 6:43PM, billyh wrote:

What percentage of creatures can teleport while prone?

Anything with a teleport speed.  Or, anything that can teleport at all.  Prone doesn't affect teleport (you just arrive still prone)

Apr 25, 2012 -- 6:43PM, billyh wrote:

How else are Lurkers and Skirmishers getting away?  (i.e. do they have stand up as minor AND shift 3 as a move?)

Skirmishers stand as a move, and then do a "shift 5 and attack someone else" as a standard.

Lurkers stand, break LoS/LoE, and go off the board for a round somehow.  They come back somewhere not near you.  Phasing, burrowing, stealth.  Yes, you'll usually get censure on this too, but there are decent odds that you'll not be able to take advantage of Censure.

(Edit: also pre-MV lurkers tend to not have at-will lurking.  So they'll start the combat that way, and then at best turn into skirmishers.  Frequently after combat starts, they're just brutes with low hit points and damage values)

Your MBA w/ Censure is ~40, right?  That's pretty close to the Twin Strike numbers.  Add some charge op (Horned Helm) and you'll be pretty golden, actually.