For the most part I'm still new to D&D. I've been playing for about a year now and I've only played 4e. Recently, though in the past 2-3 months I've joined a regular D&D group that meets once a week. As it came about we decided to take turns DMing. Realizing my turn would be coming up soon I started looking into how to DM. In the course of my research and my growth of my interest into D&D I've looked up other editions and read adventures of both 3.5e and 4e and I feel like I'm missing out. There seems to be a major lack of role-playing elements from 4e. When I intiately was told I would get to DM I was excited, but now I apprehenive about it.
One things I like to do is write and create stories, one of the reason my friend got me into D&D. But I feel like 4e can't fulfill my role-playing needs while 3.5e can. More to the point I want to put more role-playing in the campaign I'm creating, but the group I'm with aren't attuned to role-playing, with only 2 out of the 5 having played 2.5 and one that hasn't played since AD&D. Our group blandly goes from one encounter to the next without little sense or purpose other then to have an encounter and kill monsters. Just last week I tried to do a bluff check on a npc and I had to explain that it was opposed by the npc's insight check. I want to run a heavily story driven campaign, but I feel that my group doesn't really know how to roleplay or reallynknow the rules for outside of combat. I thought about trying to get them to play 3.5e since a member of the group still has the entire core set, but they don't like all seem to hate the combat and refuse to play.
In short, I'm an inexperienced DM that wants to run a campaign with the same kind of skill checks and role-playing outside of battle like 3.5e, but in 4e. I've read alot of 4e adventures and it's like the text between the encounters is just distracting background noise. I need to get my group use to making checks outside of combat and role-playing and i'm not sure how, or it might be a lost cause since all they want is combat. Well, help is appreciated.
There seems to be a major lack of role-playing elements from 4e.
4e assumes that "roleplay" is not a game mechanic. As such, it does not provide "rules" for playing your character. If you feel 4e can't fulfill your roleplaying needs, then the only real answer is: don't play it.
However, your post seems to be setting up one complaint ("4e doesn't let me roleplay") and then switching it with a completely different complaint ("My players only want to do combat"). The former is your personal issue, not a system issue. And the latter is your players' personal issue, not a 4e issue.
I have played every edition of D&D. I have played in all-combat groups and I have been in groups where combat occurs maybe every third session. This has been true of every edition. Some editions have attempted to create mechanics for roleplay, but in the end, all I have found them to do is straight-jacket the role and limit the play. This has not diminished my enjoyment of each edition -- the groups I have been in that find such rules to be limiting have simply discarded them when they got in the way.
4e is the first edition with almost no straight-jacket roleplay rules, and I love it for this. If you need roleplay rules, perhaps a different edition is more suited to you.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
Three Basic Rules (p 11)
Power Types and Usage (p 54)
Skills (p178-179)
Feats (p 192)
Rest and Recovery (p 263)
All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
One thing I like about 4e is that it makes it possible to have encounters that are not combat related by using skill challenges. I know many don't like them, but I love them. Try to put your PCs into situations where they have to think about "How would your character help the situation?" or "How would your character respond in this situation?"
Here's a simple example that might work for your players: Perhaps they see a monster flee from them (either in a dungeon or in town). If they like to combat, they will most likely want to find that monster, but how? Ask each of the players to think about their character's skills and strengths, and come up with a way that they can help the others find the monster. Have each player narrate what they want to do (figure out which skill it most resembles) and have them roll d20+appropriate skill bonus. Maybe set the DC at 10 or 12. If they get 3 successes before 3 failures, they either find the creature or they find a liar. If they fail, have them get lost and perhaps have the monsters ambush them. This is one way to build roleplaying and out of combat options into the game.
One character may say that he will search for tracks...(use perception) One may want to interact with possible witnesses and ask questions to see if they saw anything (diplomacy). One may want to examine the way the dungeon is built to gain clues about possible areas where the monster would run/hide (dungeeoneering). One may try to listen carefully to see if she can hear anything like footsteps receeding (perception). Another may want to see if he has any prior knowledge about the monster type to determine where the creature would go (nature for natural creatures, dungeoneering for abberant creatures, arcana for elemental, fey or shadow creatures).
Read more about skill challenges in the DMs guide and online to come up with other ideas. If you present the players with more than just combat, and show them how to think more like their characters, you'll teach them how to roleplay and do more than just combat.
There seems to be a major lack of role-playing elements from 4e.
4e assumes that "roleplay" is not a game mechanic. As such, it does not provide "rules" for playing your character. If you feel 4e can't fulfill your roleplaying needs, then the only real answer is: don't play it.
However, your post seems to be setting up one complaint ("4e doesn't let me roleplay") and then switching it with a completely different complaint ("My players only want to do combat"). The former is your personal issue, not a system issue. And the latter is your players' personal issue, not a 4e issue.
I have played every edition of D&D. I have played in all-combat groups and I have been in groups where combat occurs maybe every third session. This has been true of every edition. Some editions have attempted to create mechanics for roleplay, but in the end, all I have found them to do is straight-jacket the role and limit the play. This has not diminished my enjoyment of each edition -- the groups I have been in that find such rules to be limiting have simply discarded them when they got in the way.
4e is the first edition with almost no straight-jacket roleplay rules, and I love it for this. If you need roleplay rules, perhaps a different edition is more suited to you.
*applause*
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Your issue is not an edition problem. Since roleplaying is supplied by the players and not the mechanics, 4e has at least the same capacity for roleplaying as 3e, and in many ways has more. Your main problem, as you've touched on, is that your players only want combat. And until you switch that attitude, your players are going to gravitate towards combat no matter which edition you play or how much fluff you throw at them (and 3e has some tasty combat!). You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
My first suggestion is to start fresh with a new campaign. State right from the start your expectations of wanting this campaign to have more roleplaying. While your at it, solicit ideas from your players. Ask them what kind of campaign and scenarios would they enjoy roleplaying. Ask about tone, theme, and setting. Then use that info to create an enticing setting. You'll have better luck getting them to roleplay if its going to be a story they want to be a part of.
Second, flat characters do not inspire roleplaying. Rounded characters do. Encourage your players to make characters they can identify with. Characters with personalities, history, and goals. Characters who have an identity beyond their build. However, this is work. Boo! Fortunately in the 4e Character Development forum, there's this 10-min background thread pinned to the top. It's a very easy and effective way to quickly flesh out a character, and other posters have contributed lots of examples. Your players can spare 10 minutes of their valuable commericial-watching time, right?
Third, once your players have given you actual characters using the above, mine those backgrounds for plot hooks and background info, and weave that info into your campaign. When your character feels like it's really part of the world, you're more inclined to further involve their character in the world and feel invested in the setting, which will in turn make your character feel like it's really part of the world.... Positive feedback loops FTW. You want your players to think of the game as "our game", not just "the DM's game".
Fourth, actively encourage your players to think outside of the box, and present them with plenty of opportunities to do so. When you actively demonstrate that your players can use Arcana to negotiate with the high mages, religion to pray to your god before an important encounter and receive a boon, thievery to sabotage the pirate ship's helm, and insight to determine whom in the crowded bar is the source of that forboding feeling, your players will likely come up with their own interesting ideas. The oft-cited DMG pg42 is an excellent example of this philosophy. And on that note, you should also consider browsing the DMG2 for more ideas and inspiration - particulary, the DMG2's section on skill challenges, which greatly expands on the idea first introduced in the DMG.
Fifth, published adventures are intentionally vague and general because they are intended to be skeletons that you can flesh out to fit your specific campaign. They're starting points. Don't just use them as is. Feel free to add, subtract, or alter any portion of them to make them fit your group's gaming style and specific campaign. And the same goes not just for published adventures, but for any published material of any edition. ..."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true" />Sixth, browse though some DM-targeted material such as the campaign guides and location books. Even if you don't intend on using any of such material as is, these books have lots of potential plot hooks, locations, NPCs, concepts, and other ideas to draw inspiration from.
And that's all I have at the moment.
Thinking about creating a race for 4e? Make things a lil' easier on yourself by reading my Race Mechanic Creation Guide first.
My first suggestion is to start fresh with a new campaign. State right from the start your expectations of wanting this campaign to have more roleplaying. While your at it, solicit ideas from your players. Ask them what kind of campaign and scenarios would they enjoy roleplaying. Ask about tone, theme, and setting. Then use that info to create an enticing setting. You'll have better luck getting them to roleplay if its going to be a story they want to be a part of.
I would recommend strongly that you set up a campaign with a story hook basis for the party. What I mean is have some basic statement you make about who/what the PCs are before the players even start thinking up their character concepts. For example, the old Xen'drik Expeditions - Blackwheel company campaign had a solid one. You are all new recruits in the Blackwheel Company, a mercenary guild known worldwide for your loyalty, military-like discipline, and effectiveness. Your company works closesly with the ruling noble Houses, but can take jobs from others as well. Actual members of Houses who join the blackwheel company are afforded a bit of extra respect.. essentially a half-rank: but a difference of even one rank within the company easily trumps that.
Obviously you can use different hooks, and should pick one suitable to your setting and your intentions of the campaign. The big think is that this gives the players a guide to make appropriate PCs that can/will work together, a default relationship with NPCs in the world (that may change due to events in game of course), and a ready source of story hooks (being subject to orders is a great way to get things moving, but not the only possible way. It also can be a good way to get things moving -again- if the PCs ever find everything they were interested in pursue has settled down and the players aren't sure what to do next).
You'll probably find with a reasonably well defined hook like Blackwheel Company that you'll get a mix of characters that play to what they percieve as the expectations and ones that play directly against it.. i.e. maybe you'd get a Blackwheel recruit who clearly despises the noble Houses. If this is done well it can be great for roleplaying, setting up intraparty tension and diversity, but if overdone it can be disruptive or problematic: obviously this character is going to be taking orders that come down from the Houses, and working with House members and can get the Company in trouble if he lets his contempt for the Houses get in the way of his duties.
---
As for roleplaying mechanics.. you mentioned needing to remind one of the other DMs that bluff is opposed by insight. That's the kind of thing where 3.5 will potentially -kill- your table's roleplaying. Obviously your players aren't heavily invested in non-combat mechanics, so how much fun do you think they're going to have being lectured on them all the time, or being faced with challenge after challenge that they could solve easily if they had just had an encyclopedic knowledge of utility spells and the foresight to bring a scroll of each? And heaven help you if you turn them around too far and end up with a party of non-combat minmaxers trying to crush every non-combat situation through abusive application of rules text.
The number one thing you need for roleplaying is a DM that keeps an interesting plot in front of the players.. give them things to wonder about and opportunities to find out, courses of events to care about, and ways to direct them, and of course enemies to hate and the chance to fight them. However, it isn't just the DM that matters.. the players need to respond by actually engaging with the story, and the NPCs, and the events, and not just the combat stats.
Personally, when I run skill challenges (aside from in combat skill challenges) the DCs/dice/skill modifiers are basically there to shape the characters' choices.. that is, the wizard is the one that will go and study the arcane runes, not the rogue or the fighter, because the wizard is the one who has a high number in that slot.. but also because it makes more sense narratively. And maybe a particularly low or high roll here or there might prompt the injection of a surprise twist into the story, but basically I am going to put a situation in front of my players and the PCs are going to do in-character things using their talents to solve the problem.
Remember to not use the skill challenge framework as a straight jacket, but rather as a loose guideline. Did you plan for an athletics choice to jump over a chasm, but the PCs busted out a magic item to fly over it? Success! Did the player just intuit the truth behind the deception your NPCs was trying to pull? Success! Did you reach the 7th successful die roll at a place that feels narratively like the end of the challenge, when you planned for 10 successes to be needed? Success! It should always feel like the story is driving, not the mechanical framework.
You should also feel free to experiment with different styles of non-combat encounters, including (but not limited to) variant skill challenges. For example a time-pressure situation is usually better modelled as X successes within 3 (more or less) rounds of attempts, so that trying and failing is worse than not trying at all. You should try to shape the challenge in a way that fits the shape of the situation. Maybe no number of failures should prevent working on toward eventual success, but each failure comes with a distinctive cost (lost healing surge, added enemies in the following combat encounter, or maybe a more narrative penalty, such as the death of innocent NPCs the party was trying to save.. whatever is most fitting).
4e is the first edition with almost no straight-jacket roleplay rules, and I love it for this. If you need roleplay rules, perhaps a different edition is more suited to you.
Thanks for the advice form everone that posted. I know this is a personal issue, but to new players, like me, that have never played a table top game I have no idea as to how it even goes. I want to stress that this problem is because of my ignorence and not the design of the game. But when a group of mostly inexperienced people like us look at 4e the only clear cut outline is of combat. So, we end up doing what we can only clearly understand. In the end, I guess it just comes back to the fact I need experience and practise. Well, the rest of you have actually given me a pretty good ideas as to what I should do when it comes to implementing combat and skill checks together. I'm not certain it will be right or more importantly fun but till I get a hang of this whole thing they'll just have to deal.
My advice to you is not to get hung up on doing it "right". Roleplaying "right" isn't a thing that the books or the boards or the rules can demand, it is a standard that only exists between the people at the table. Do what comes awesomely.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
My advice to you is not to get hung up on doing it "right". Roleplaying "right" isn't a thing that the books or the boards or the rules can demand, it is a standard that only exists between the people at the table. Do what comes awesomely.
This! As long as everyone is having fun, You're Doing It RightTM
Though it may help to see other D&D games in action to get an idea of how a game can flow. If you can't sit in on a local game, I've heard good things about the Penny Arcade Podcasts and Thursday Knights. The latter broadcasts live on Thursdays nights. Caption Obvious AWAY!
Thinking about creating a race for 4e? Make things a lil' easier on yourself by reading my Race Mechanic Creation Guide first.
