|
1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 9:41PM
#221
|
|
|
It took no effort on their part to monitor all their clerics, paladins and normal worshipers.
That would be inconsistant with the ability of gods described in most major mythologies.
Perhaps, but it's not really at odds with fiction, and it is represented in real world religions too. Ultimately, how omniscient and/or omnipotent gods should be is an individual playgroup issue.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 9:48PM
#222
|
Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2007
|
Oaths have a power in there own right...
Haha, you have no idea.
I once played a 4e Blackguard who, after a PC was murdered by someone(player consent, he could no longer make it to games), swore a blood oath to find the guy and kill him.
We found him, began the fight, he died almost instantly(I had a custom weapon that, ona crit, instead of crit dice I made an At-WIll attack, and stacked with each additional crit.....I rolled 4 natural 20s in a row, one was Blood of the Mighty with a Fullblade). In all, I did almost 300 damage in a single round against the guy.
For some reason this reminds me of an evil version of Vhailor from Planescape Torment:
Vhailor: When the injustice is great enough, justice will lend me the strength needed to correct it. None may stand against it. It will shatter every barrier, sunder any shield, tear through any enchantment, and lend its servant the power to pass sentence. Know this: There is nothing on all the Planes that can stay the hand of justice when it is brought against them. It may unmake armies. It may sunder the thrones of gods. Know that for all who betray justice, I am their fate. And fate carries an executioner's axe. The Nameless One: I see. Vhailor: No you do not see. Pray that you will never see.
Sorry for the interruptive allusion. =P
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 10:06PM
#223
|
|
|
Latitude in RP choices doesn't equate to more power. It equates to more choice. By your assertion that paladins deserve more mechanical power because they have less RP choice, you are transitively applying that to other situations like characters from repressed or socially strict societies.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.
It took no effort on their part to monitor all their clerics, paladins and normal worshipers.
That would be inconsistant with the ability of gods described in most major mythologies.
I like the Greek Gods especially Zeus. I wonder how many affairs were blamed on him - "It was a golden bull that came down from the heavens I swear."
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
Show
"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
Show
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 10:12PM
#224
|
Date Joined:
Dec 12, 2011
|
This will likely get ignored because it doesn't fuel the crusading being done about the Right Way Things Should Be Done, but here we go.
Given the latest Legend & Lore artcle about the cleric where it seems the the cleric is defaulting to heavy amoured support guy with a whompy stick, but allowed enough roum to be lightly armored, sneaky and scouty support guy and other variations....
Perhaps the paladin is defaulting to the traditional LG paragon of weal and honor, but will have options to be opened up as a generic champion of other gods/alignments. Heck, if gods have Domains (or Spheres, or whatever) in 5e, they could be used as a way to link different deities/ethos to class abilities that replace the standard paladin class abilities (for instance, while a god with the Good Domain grants the Smite Evil ability, a god with the Death Domain would instead gain an appropriate alternate class ability). And there could be a nice bit of fluff that "paladin" of different ethoses/gods are typically referred to by other names (blackguards, anti-paladins, avengers, liberators, justicars, etc.).
Playtest or get off the playtest boards.
---
I want justice for the voice that can't be heard
Vindication for every suffering and hurt
Let retribution hold dominion over earth
--Nemesis, VNV Nation
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 10:14PM
#225
|
|
|
This will likely get ignored because it doesn't fuel the crusading being done about the Right Way Things Should Be Done, but here we go.
Given the latest Legend & Lore artcle about the cleric where it seems the the cleric is defaulting to heavy amoured support guy with a whompy stick, but allowed enough roum to be lightly armored, sneaky and scouty support guy and other variations....
Perhaps the paladin is defaulting to the traditional LG paragon of weal and honor, but will have options to be opened up as a generic champion of other gods/alignments. Heck, if gods have Domains (or Spheres, or whatever) in 5e, they could be used as a way to link different deities/ethos to class abilities that replace the standard paladin class abilities (for instance, while a god with the Good Domain grants the Smite Evil ability, a god with the Death Domain would instead gain an appropriate alternate class ability). And there could be a nice bit of fluff that "paladin" of different ethoses/gods are typically referred to by other names (blackguards, anti-paladins, avengers, liberators, justicars, etc.).
I saw that article just a little while ago. I think it's very promising (I posted a quote from the article in the thread about it indicating what about it in particular I found enthusing). I've been arguing that both sides should be able to have the kind of paladin they want. If they do what you are speculating, then that is exactly what we'll all get . . . the freedom to do what we want.
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
Show
so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 10:25PM
#226
|
Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2010
|
My 2 cents. I think that the Paladin should choose a Deity or Motto that they live by, that motivate, and power them. SO they get powers from their Diety, from a sphere or whatever. If you want to use a motto, then you choose a sphere, or whatever, that falls into the motto or belief. Then they should have modules where there is a code of conduct, and you should be able to get more options/powers. Since you are giving up Flexibility, you should be given power as long as you follow the restrictions you put on your character. These should be the only powers you lose if you break your code of conduct. I see them as extra gifts being bestowed upon you from your devotion, or willpower. These restrictions shoulod be available to all of the classes, not just the Paladin. That way if people want extra power, and have the limitations, they have it. If they don't want the hassle of having to play their character a certain way, then they shouldn't be punished, but they are giving up the ability for those extra powers. Also, these restrictions should not be only LG restrictions, there should be options that make sense for all allignments.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 22, 2012 - 11:00PM
#227
|
|
|
Latitude in RP choices doesn't equate to more power. It equates to more choice.
Yeah, I don't get that "evil = power" thing either. If I want to play a Good character, then playing that character is the point of the game for me. I'm explicitly signing up not to torture and rob imaginary people, so a reward doesn't make any sense. Every well-defined character is giving up some kind of behavior anyway, so I can't guess why only some should be rewarded.
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves. Quotation of the moment
Show
Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?
Quotation of ALL moments
Show
TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon.
A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 23, 2012 - 3:41AM
#228
|
Date Joined:
Nov 13, 2004
|
Eh, I always saw gods as too busy with god stuff to have to keep watching all of his paladins all the time to make sure none of them tripped over a kitten and didn't atone within a split second and mostly leaves that stuff up to officials he specifically grants the authority to do so.
I was reading 1e recently and one thing that struck me was how they spelled out how closely gods actually monitor clerics; gods only keep a close eye on extremely high-level followers, personally granting level 7+ spells. They have their angels watch out for and grant magic to clerics capable of level 4-6 spells. Lower level folks don't really show up on their radar, and gain their level 1-3 spells through their training. Or, at least, that's how I remember it.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 23, 2012 - 6:24AM
#229
|
Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
|
It took no effort on their part to monitor all their clerics, paladins and normal worshipers.
That would be inconsistant with the ability of gods described in most major mythologies.
Perhaps, but it's not really at odds with fiction, and it is represented in real world religions too.
Monotheist.... ones. Featuring entities who voluntarily abstane from interaction, ie... it really doesnt correspond.
|
|
|
|
1 year ago ::
Apr 23, 2012 - 7:08AM
#230
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
|
It took no effort on their part to monitor all their clerics, paladins and normal worshipers.
That would be inconsistant with the ability of gods described in most major mythologies.
In most major mythologies, the priests didn't actually cast any spells or powers. Oh, and they really didn't have any paladins at all, excepting the milititant orders of the Catholic Church and those didn't have any power or spells, either.
I wouldn't have any problem with Gods not being able to remove powers/spells if their priests and paladins didn't actually have any powers/spells. 
|
|
|
