Community

Apr 18, 2012 -- 4:44PM, alastordracul wrote:

I am helping on an epic build for shennanigans. It is a gestalt warhulk as stated above. The first half was fairly easy for what we want, Dugeon Crasher/Warhulk/Hulking Hurler. We are having trouble putting the second half together. The first idea was a goliath variant barbarian. The strength bonus from that is nice for bullrushing but that's all it adds. I was thinking using an initiator instead. I don't know if it is possible to get a lockdown mechanic built in to keep enemies from escaping without at least dipping initiator. I know this build is one dimensional and not the best idea for gestalt, but I'd be very appreciative for any input.

I assume you're okay with goliath not qualifying for War Hulk at all. They're Medium. Powerful Build is NOT Large size; it lets you copy the benefits of Large size under certain circumstances, and qualifying for feats and PrCs in general is not one of them. 

If you want a goliath war hulk, your only solution is to play a Mountain Rage barbarian. These trade Powerful Build for Large while you're in a rage, meaning your war hulk abilities go offline when you aren't raging. This isn't always a bad thing - the war hulk's No Time To Think is quite the drawback for specific builds. (And, if you think about it, you literally get The Hulk this way: you get angry and get bigger and madder, even though, when you're not angry, you can still pack Knowledge skills.)

With that in mind, you want something with full base attack on the other "side". (Side is not a good way to think about this.) This mitigates the one big problem with War Hulk.  Martial initiators are fun, particularly with crusaders, but note that you need the highest levels of War Hulk to even consider combining it with an initiator due to Mighty Swing taking up its own action until the end. (At the end it modifies any melee attack, including the melee attack you make as part of a maneuver.) This will NOT combine well with Hulking Hurler at all, and that class is actually terribly broken in its own right - it's basically no synergy at all. You'd be better off packing in more Figher levels on that "side" for more feats to give you options.

Here's a goliath strength build I put together a while ago to showcase how Dungeon Crasher is far, far more than just bull rushing. Feel free to borrow from it.

Apr 18, 2012 -- 6:12PM, alastordracul wrote:

Apr 18, 2012 -- 5:21PM, Tempest_Stormwind wrote:

I assume you're okay with goliath not qualifying for War Hulk at all. They're Medium. Powerful Build is NOT Large size; it lets you copy the benefits of Large size under certain circumstances, and qualifying for feats and PrCs in general is not one of them. 

Races of Stone says otherwise. For feats that require you to be large or larger it states that a goliath meets the requirement by virtue of powerful build. Some examples are knockback (which is in your build) and rock hurling. It doesn't mention classes but its not really a far stretch to allow it. I will give you that in the description of powerful build it makes no mention of this.

No, no it doesn't. Those are specific exceptions called out in the feats. By your logic, since the Wanderer's Diplomacy feat (requires: Halfling or several ranks in social skills) exists, all halflings can instantly qualify for anything requiring several ranks in social skills, or anyone with those social skills can qualify for halfling-only feats, simply by virtue of there being an exception somewhere. Surely you'd agree this is stupid, and yet it is exactly the same logic you are using - pointing out a specific exception in one feat and saying that this modifies the general rule.

Let's look at Powerful Build. I'll quote from the half-giant in the SRD, who got it first; the goliath's is identical. Emphasis mine.

Powerful Build: The physical stature of half-giants lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category larger.

Many, not all. So it goes on to describe which ways those are:

Whenever a half-giant is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as during grapple checks, bull rush attempts, and trip attempts), the half-giant is treated as one size larger if doing so is advantageous to him.

Okay, so it's whenever you look at a size modifier for opposed checks. Sorry, but meeting PrC prereqs is not an opposed check. Next!

A half-giant is also considered to be one size larger when determining whether a creature’s special attacks based on size (such as improved grab or swallow whole) can affect him.

And neither is a prerequisite determining if an effect can hit him. Next!

A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. However, his space and reach remain those of a creature of his actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject’s size category.

 
Being able to use Large weapons without penalty does not a Large creature make.

If those exceptions in Knockback, Fling Ally, etc. didn't exist, goliaths couldn't take those feats. The developers could have made this clearer by saying "Size Large, or size Medium with Powerful Build" as a prereq, but they didn't. 

Similar example: A soulknife makes a mind blade sized for a creature of his size. A half-giant or goliath soulknife, despite Powerful Build, is actually Medium. Therefore they produce a Medium mind blade, not a Large one. 

Apr 19, 2012 -- 12:51PM, Krusk wrote:

I would do a Wu Jen on the other side. Almost entirely for giant size, but some control spells could be handy too I guess. Also get you a nice will save. If you can find a prestige class for a wizard who can get giant sized go that way, its probably better.

The problem with thinking about "sides" on gestalt is that it doesn't work that way, and you fall into pits like this - you can't gain levels in two PrCs at the same time in gestalt. Thus, since he's War Hulking most of the time, those are levels that would have to be Wu Jen under this approach, as opposed to a PrC.

Also, I find Giant Size to be too high-level to truly matter. You can get two size increases for a much longer duration at level 9, and Giant Size needs to be at CL 16 before it can outdo that for most people (and even then, it only lasts a minute and takes a round to cast (slow like Summon Monster); by the time level level 15 rolls around, you could easily be getting those two size increases with a swift action and having them last fifteen times as long). It's a great spell, but so often people overlook better solutions. Or, for that matter, overlook the rest of the Wu Jen list, which is surprisingly effective in hybrid characters (For example, Fire Shuriken is an amazing sneak attack delivery system) or for fueling other effects (for instance, a startlingly large number of amazing divine-only spells appear on the wu jen list, which make them available to certain arcane spell users. The most dramatic of these is probably Earthquake.)

A permanacy on enlarge person costs 450 for perm + 90 for enlarge person by the same guy. + 2500 for the XP cost. So for 3040gp you can be perminatley enlarged, which is even better because you get powerful build benefits as though you were huge. It also shuts down the entire debate and your PC is legal.