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1 year ago ::
Apr 18, 2012 - 9:56PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Jan 16, 2012
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well considering their idea of balance at higher levels, maybe its for the best
My group is still Heroic. What is the Balance issue you speak of, in case I need to prepare for some unknown thing.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 18, 2012 - 11:43PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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> 2. Decrease the variety of monster groups per encounter. Having 3 or more
> different creatures to reference is too many. It serves no benefit for gameplay
> other than story.
I'd actually say that three types in an encounter is about right, as is two types. One doesn't work (unless there's some other major feature that serves as a de facto 'monster') and four is where it becomes unwieldy, but three allows for creature synergy that can't always be done with two.
Of course, that takes a hit when the creature's stats aren't readily available, but I suppose it's only fair - people've complained about the redundancy of reprinting standard stat blocks in every encounter (sometimes multiple times in the span of a few pages) and asked for that to be left out, and it looks like they've got it. OTOH, if the creatures are off-level or otherwise nonstandard then that does pose a problem.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 1:48AM
#23
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Of course, that takes a hit when the creature's stats aren't readily available, but I suppose it's only fair - people've complained about the redundancy of reprinting standard stat blocks in every encounter (sometimes multiple times in the span of a few pages) and asked for that to be left out, and it looks like they've got it. OTOH, if the creatures are off-level or otherwise nonstandard then that does pose a problem.
Exactly. I suspect the main reason to print it like this is exactly because of the loud and often heard complaints about reprinting standard monsters and the rather large amount of space they take up. Not printing every monster speaks in favor of the product for me as well, especially if it means a couple of more pages with story hooks and little details that enrich the adventure. I will simply print the monsters on seperate paper (it is what we did during the playtest), also really easy to modify them up and down (it is not as if you *need* the monster builder for that). Each his own I guess...
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 1:54AM
#24
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I was the producer and managing editor on Halls of Undermountain, and let me begin by saying thanks for the feedback. Good or bad, it's appreciated. We're always looking to make improvements with each new project and look for creative ways to leverage our resources.
We produce products of different sizes and price points, for variety, and the page count for Halls of Undermountain was set at 96 pages, a size comparable to some of our earlier 4E adventures (namely the H/P/E series). The designers' goal was to pack as much adventure as possible into those 96 pages, and as it stands, there are weeks if not months of game play in this adventure product. After we laid out the book and placed the maps and art, it was running long, so I made the decision to cut stat blocks instead of encounters, new traps, or new magic items. I would rather send DMs to the Monster Vault for monster stats than print yet another kobold slinger stat block, or worse, the same kobold slinger stat block four or five times in the same adventure. Monster books are supposed to be DM references, so I don't feel bad telling DMs they need other resources to run an adventure; that's what monster books are for. Most of the monsters in the adventure appear in Monster Vault, so that became our one default reference. It's the only reference a DM needs to run the adventure (although D&DI subscribers can use the online Compendium as a substitute). Monster stats that don't appear in Monster Vault were placed at the end of the adventure because many of these monsters appear in more than one location, and for practical reasons, we didn't want to repeat the stat blocks over and over. I agree that flipping pages can be annoying, so I recommend using a bookmark. It's not high tech, but it works.
Tactical maps that show the precise placement of monsters in every room was an interesting experiment that began late in 3E and continued throughout 4E. However, their value is questionable given the amount of space they consume. We're using them less these days because (a) the exact position of a monster is seldom important and (b) very few DMs who buy this sort of product need that much hand-holding. We'll continue using tactical maps for some of our more complex encounters, particularly ones in which monster placement and terrain are critical factors. Halls of Undermountain has three such encounters, with tactical poster maps to accompany them.
One cannot do justice to Undermountain in 96 pages, but the goal of this book was to inspire DMs to run an Undermountain campaign for a few weeks or months. Some folks who pick up this book will be inspired to do much more, perhaps even develop some of the deeper levels on their own or with the help of older Undermountain products, many of which are helpful despite being one or more editions out of date. We look forward to hearing from folks who run the adventure and expand on the material provided. I also direct D&DI subscribers to ChattyDM's recent article, "Trobriand's Machinations," and Matt Sernett's article, "Traps of Undermountain," for additional inspiration.
Chris Perkins
D&D Senior Producer
Wizards of the Coast LLC
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 2:12AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Aug 11, 2006
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Thanks, Chris! That's about what I figured was going on.
Unfortunately, I won't be able to get my hands on this for a couple more weeks...
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 4:45AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2007
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I'm not entirely sure why it contains a section on linking the adventure with the current Encounters season. Surely in a month or two it's going to be out of date, and irrelevent? If not, then why not also mention Season One of Encounters, which dealt with Halaster's apprentice and seems more directly linked to Undermountain itself?
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 7:04AM
#27
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Chris, I love the fact that you address the criticisms (mostly mine) leveled at this product, and it’s great that you take time to extend the reasoning behind the decisions. Everyone loves it when someone takes ownership of the decision and steps forward. Halls of Undermountain is certainly an ambitious product with lots of potential. It has some great ideas. I am more than thrilled about the content, as much of the material can be lifted and used elsewhere in the event that someone doesn’t run the book the way it was written.
But I gotta say, no matter what your reasons are for removing the stat blocks, I think that’s a poor decision, and it’s one that goes against the bulk of material both TSR and WotC has published. Even in 1st edition, the product developers had the sense to put core information about a creature at the DMs fingertips. Among the thousands of d20 products, how many authors abbreviated their adventures by refering them to the Monster Manual? None that I remember. They were few and far between.
Removing the stat blocks, whether you agree or not, is a step in the wrong direction. As customer and DM, adventure books should by-and-large be self-contained. I think it borders on hubris to demand customers to subscribe to DDi to make any portion of a product function. And while I agree with you that the monster reference books are available and on sale for a reason (and most of your customers will already have them), it is not something a DM wants to reference in the middle of running an adventure. No one wants to flip back-and-forth between three different monsters. Come on now. Do you do that? I don’t. I already have maps, dungeon tiles, figures, dice, and a module to lug around… last thing I want is to be required to bring reference books.
So while you may not feel bad about your decision to tell customers to reference other materials, maybe you should… if just a little. Digging your heals in or being cavalier about what customers might think when they are wasting time thumbing through a Monster Compendium to make this product work doesn’t justify the decision to the customer. I seldom level the kind of criticism I have leveled at HoU, and I am sure my sourness of my tone will overshadow the praise I have sung for the parts of HoU that ARE great and other D&D products that WotC produces. For that, please understand I am sorry and really do admire your work. I am a big fan of Chris Perkins. But I have little gift for tact and I know what makes a good product. This could have, and probably should have, been better. Including stat blocks really is that important.
If you are willing to take any advice — and I know that you have a vast body of experience that might preclude you from thoughtfully considering someone on this forum you don’t know — then I’ll throw one final remark: if you remove stat blocks from future products, it will increase the prep time for DMs to run them, and depending on the product, it could be prohibitive. There’s no two sides to that argument. Would it help if the stat blocks took up less space? Yes. 4e stat blocks are big. Does all the information have to be in a stat bock? Probably not. There are solutions to this problem that would remove the economic necessity to remove stat blocks for an entire book. But to continue to go down the direction this book goes? Well, you’ll end up with more product on the shelves than there should be… and none of us want that.
On a completely different note: what would it take to coax you to remake D1-3? You know the love out there for the G series you did. Even if you can’t be specific, some of your customers would love to know how well received (# of downloads) that series was. If you put the G series and D series in a book (Hell, Chris, you can even make it 96 pages), I would buy it in a heartbeat. I’ll even pay more than $30. Maybe that’s a subject for a future online poll: How much would DMs pay for their products? I, for one, am willing to pay more.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 7:38AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2011
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I don't think removing the monster stat blocks is that big a deal to be honest, but I think it should be labelled clearly on the front of the packaging "requires Monster Vault or DDI sub". It's easy to photocopy the page in MV for quick reference during the game. I do this for my own home-written adventures.
(Ideally, I agree, the monsters (including the ones from other sources) should be at least listed at the back of the book.)
I think this style of product is very much geared for experienced DMs, and it's not a "pick up and play" adventure. This will suit some people and not others. Personally, with a full time job and a busy schedule, I prefer a product with the work done for me, but I imagine some DMs will love the flexibilty and openness of the format.
Oh, great to see you on the community forums, Chris. :-)
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 9:39AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2009
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Can someone tell me about the tactical poster maps included, if any? How many, what the sizes are, how interesting they are for encounter locations?
Right now I don't necessarily need more adventure locations, but more tactical maps are always useful, and I suspect they will continue to be useful even in D&DNext, for groups that choose to play with them.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 9:45AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Jul 20, 2011
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I was the producer and managing editor on Halls of Undermountain, and let me begin by saying thanks for the feedback. Good or bad, it's appreciated. We're always looking to make improvements with each new project and look for creative ways to leverage our resources. We produce products of different sizes and price points, for variety, and the page count for Halls of Undermountain was set at 96 pages, a size comparable to some of our earlier 4E adventures (namely the H/P/E series). The designers' goal was to pack as much adventure as possible into those 96 pages, and as it stands, there are weeks if not months of game play in this adventure product. After we laid out the book and placed the maps and art, it was running long, so I made the decision to cut stat blocks instead of encounters, new traps, or new magic items. I would rather send DMs to the Monster Vault for monster stats than print yet another kobold slinger stat block, or worse, the same kobold slinger stat block four or five times in the same adventure. Monster books are supposed to be DM references, so I don't feel bad telling DMs they need other resources to run an adventure; that's what monster books are for. Most of the monsters in the adventure appear in Monster Vault, so that became our one default reference. It's the only reference a DM needs to run the adventure (although D&DI subscribers can use the online Compendium as a substitute). Monster stats that don't appear in Monster Vault were placed at the end of the adventure because many of these monsters appear in more than one location, and for practical reasons, we didn't want to repeat the stat blocks over and over. I agree that flipping pages can be annoying, so I recommend using a bookmark. It's not high tech, but it works. Tactical maps that show the precise placement of monsters in every room was an interesting experiment that began late in 3E and continued throughout 4E. However, their value is questionable given the amount of space they consume. We're using them less these days because (a) the exact position of a monster is seldom important and (b) very few DMs who buy this sort of product need that much hand-holding. We'll continue using tactical maps for some of our more complex encounters, particularly ones in which monster placement and terrain are critical factors. Halls of Undermountain has three such encounters, with tactical poster maps to accompany them. One cannot do justice to Undermountain in 96 pages, but the goal of this book was to inspire DMs to run an Undermountain campaign for a few weeks or months. Some folks who pick up this book will be inspired to do much more, perhaps even develop some of the deeper levels on their own or with the help of older Undermountain products, many of which are helpful despite being one or more editions out of date. We look forward to hearing from folks who run the adventure and expand on the material provided. I also direct D&DI subscribers to ChattyDM's recent article, "Trobriand's Machinations," and Matt Sernett's article, "Traps of Undermountain," for additional inspiration. Chris Perkins D&D Senior Producer Wizards of the Coast LLC
Chris, if there is one answer I would like, would you be able to verify if there will be a continuation of covering Undermountain? With so many levels, just one level being covered will certainly leave us wanting more. But I will say, that it is magnificently detailed while still leaving a lot for DMs to work with and mold how we like. Great job!
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