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1 year ago ::
Apr 11, 2012 - 5:59PM
#1
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This is only one thing i dont understand in DnD at all. Why Religion skill is intelligent based? Why it isnt a Wisdom based?? All divine classes dont need intelligent at all. Paladin, invoker, cleric, runepriest - they all dont need intelligent. It means that all divine classes very weak with their key skill. How much cleric knows about religion on paragon tier(11 lvl)? Let me check - 5(trained)+5(half-level)=10. How much knows a wizard about religion at 1st level? 5(inteligent)+5(trained)=10. Hm... what? U mean that a paragon cleric knowledge about his key skill is the same with a 1st level wizard? Or any other arcane class? It is so illogically. It makes me crazy. Its like a druid unskilled with nature or fighter unskilled with athletics. It is a cleric without high religion skill. Who gived him a holy simbol? He known something about his deity at least?
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1 year ago ::
Apr 11, 2012 - 6:30PM
#2
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It's a knowledge skill. Knowledge is governed by Intelligence. Perfectly logical.
And it makes perfect sense to me that a theologian would know more about religion than a priest, because the priest is only going to know things about his own religion. If I want to know the basis of Shintoism, I'm not going to ask the Pope.
BTW, you do know that fighters aren't automatically trained in Athletics, right?
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 11, 2012 - 6:46PM
#3
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Well from this point of view Nature should be an intelligent skill also.... but ok, of course you right (and of coure i am known about athletics, it was just an example) but if we will assume that religion is not an knowledge skill. For example: maths or histrory in real - it is always about your knowledge, u have to know special formula's or dates to give an answer about maths or history(arcana and history in DnD) but religion in general illogical sistem. Sometimes Its about your experiense. Intelligent man can be known about gods of shintoism. A wise man can explain you "why they believe in it" and etc. Anyway in DnD, a wise pope very unskilled even with his oun deity and religion.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 11, 2012 - 7:37PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2010
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I see the religion skill less involving "why they believe in it" than it is "what they believe" where "they" is everyone and involves all deities and religions. So Int makes sense to me. Personally I'll give the cleric in my game a situational bonus if something comes up specifically related to his god, but if he wants to be an expert in religion in general he'll need to bump up his Int score. Though I'll agree what attribute is associated with what skill can be a bit illogical - the one that really bugs me is intimidate. The player in my game that is a big burly wolf-like person, that apparently isn't very scary because he doesn't like to talk to people. I've been tempted to trying introducing the idea of altering what the relevant stat is based on how the players try to accomplish something like described here
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1 year ago ::
Apr 11, 2012 - 7:40PM
#5
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I see the religion skill less involving "why they believe in it" than it is "what they believe" where "they" is everyone and involves all deities and religions. So Int makes sense to me. Personally I'll give the cleric in my game a situational bonus if something comes up specifically related to his god, but if he wants to be an expert in religion in general he'll need to bump up his Int score.
Though I'll agree what attribute is associated with what skill can be a bit illogical - the one that really bugs me is intimidate. The player in my game that is a big burly wolf-like person, that apparently isn't very scary because he doesn't like to talk to people. I've been tempted to trying introducing the idea of altering what the relevant stat is based on how the players try to accomplish something like described here
Think of it less that he doesn't like to talk to people than he doesn't know how to talk to people. Charisma isn't just likeability; it's presence. Despite being a big, burly wolf-like person, if he has a low Charisma, he's meek or introverted, or perhaps when he tries to threaten people he comes off like a bad pro-wrestling interview.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 11, 2012 - 8:03PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2010
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Oh I know there's ways to play it that make sense, he usually is closer to the "bad pro-wrestling interview" side of things, though there's times that physical intimidation seems like it would fit the situation, while RAW it doesn't work that way. My point was more to say religion isn't special in having this kind of mismatch, probably every skill has these kinds of situations, some just seem to come up more often than others depending on the characters.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 11, 2012 - 11:41PM
#7
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Actually, Invoker is one of 4 classes that can decently be Int/Wis without resorting to trickery.
But really, you don't have to know the history, background, and tenents of a religion to be a fanatic about it; historically speaking it's more likely that the fanatics know the least about religions, including their own.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection. My Guides
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1 year ago ::
Apr 12, 2012 - 8:52AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Apr 29, 2006
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Religion is Int-based because it's a purely academic skill. Religion encompasses knowledge of facts, and Int represents a character's ability to learn. Wis is more about common sense, perception, and intuition, which themselves do not help you memorize a body of facts. So Int is the clearer choice to govern the Religion skill. Also, keep in mind that clerics are not scholars. While they are, of course, knowledgeable of religious lore (they are auto-trained in religion), clerics are leaders and soldiers first. They offer consul and guidance, and set an example for others to follow (cha). They train in the art of war so that they can wield mace and shield in defense of their fellow worshipers (str). And they intuitively wield the divine power invested in them to heal and aid (wis). Book learnin' is not a priority for them. That said, Clerics are by no means slouches when it comes to religious knowledge either. Since they are trained in religion, they'll likely know more about religion than most other members of their party, let alone the average commoner, consistently making easy and moderate checks, and having a decent shot at making hard checks - or better than even chance with the right background, items, feats, or racial skill bonuses. But knowing stuff, as I've said, is simply not their expertise. And it's not fair comparing the cleric to the wizard, since knowing everything better than anyone else is part of the wizard's core identity. So while the cleric's religious knowledge is not the highest, it's certainly not the lowest either. However, OP, invokers and avengers are the religious scholars you are looking for, as both classes have builds that use Int as a strong secondary. So if you need to know absolutely everything about religion, you don't ask your temple's face. You ask the guy in the temple library who constantly studies every ancient tomb available, or you go to the war room and talk to the dark-hooded figure in the back whose job is to know what's what, and then use that knowledge to eliminate threats to the church. Now back to the subject of the Int/Wis split with knowledge skills, as pointed out earlier, some knowledge skills do you Wis. Namely Nature and Dungeoneering. Note, however, that these skills are not purely academic, like Arcana and Religion. Both skills also represent practical survival skills as well. For example, someone trained in Nature doesn't just know about plants, animals, and the weather (academic knowledge), but is actually skilled at foraging for food, predicting an animal's behavior by reading subtle body language, and maintaining their sense of direction to avoid getting lost. These kind of sub-skills require common sense and perception to actively perform them, which is Wis. Or to put it another way, it's basically the difference between watching Survivor Man on TV and actually being Les Stroud. So while Int and Wis could both make sense for these skills, apparently the designers felt that the survival aspects of the skill held more "weight" than the academic aspects and decided to make them Wis-based. TL;DR: Clerics don't suck a religion, but they're not scholars either. Invokers and Avengers are divine classes that can rock at religion. Wizards know everything because that's what they do.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 12, 2012 - 10:33AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2007
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I'll admit I TL;DR'd the above, but i'd give a divine class a bonus to religion checks involving their own deity, but I can see why they'd know less about other religions compared to someone who studied it academicaly.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 12, 2012 - 12:47PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2012
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I'll admit I TL;DR'd the above, but i'd give a divine class a bonus to religion checks involving their own deity, but I can see why they'd know less about other religions compared to someone who studied it academicaly.
This is what I plan to do: Give Divine classes Their wisdom modifier as a bonus to Religion checks (or use it as their base Ability, if their Int is negative) on their own deity, and on deities closely related to their own (for example, a paladin of Bahamut would get the bonus to checks reguarding Tiamat or Io, but not to, say Moradin). Wizards may know more in general, about religion, since they're the book-learning kind, but if you're devoted to your god, you had better know at least as much as the Wizard about your own deity.
I am currently raising funds to run for President in 2016. Too many administrations have overlooked the international menace, that is Carmen Sandiego. I shall devote any and all necessary military resources to bring her to justice.
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