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1 year ago ::
Apr 06, 2012 - 11:05PM
#1
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Assume a paragon level Human Thief. He multiclasses into Assassin via Shadow Initiate. He takes the Unerring Ambush feat during paragon along with Reserve Maneuver to pick up Shadow Fire. A couple of questions. 1. Can I even take the power with Reserve Maneuver? Backstab doesn't have a level, so I'm not sure it's legal for Reserve Maneuver. If not, is there another way to pick up the Assassin encounter power? 2. How many attack rolls would I make while using that power in the first round? Does Unerring Ambush give me 1 extra attack only, or does it apply to each of the 3 attack rolls, giving me three sets of two attack rolls? The build idea is an Alpha Striker, using the Samurai theme and Danger Sense to go first and kill a single target. Other feats include Lethal Shroud, Brutal Shroud, Killer's Insight, Crimson Eye Action (for the AP on the first turn), Deft Blade, Superior Initiative, Light Blade Expertise, Weapon Focus, Devestating Shroud and Untettered Stride. Death Shroud Ki Focus as well. --- If it's not legal for a Thief to take the Shadow Fire power, then assume a Rogue//Assassin Hybrid, which could take both the power and the Unerring Ambush feat. Edit: Found a way to take Shadow Fire legally. Take Scoundrel Training in late paragon (18th level) and pick some 17th level Rogue Encounter power. Doesn't matter which. Then you can take Reserve Maneuver at 20th, choosing Shadow Fire to replace the Rogue power you picked up through Scoundrel Training. The feat tax hurts, but it's at least legal that way.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 07, 2012 - 1:14AM
#2
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You already answered question 1. I would answer question 2 if I thought it was relevant considering your build idea.
Shadow Fire is an absolutely horrible power, especially considering you're losing a level 17 rogue power to pick it up ... in fact the combination of all of the feats you've taken regarding Assassin's Shroud end up with a lower Nova potential than keeping the level 17 rogue power you gained through Scoundrel Training. Tumbling Strike is at level 17 and is considered one of the most powerful striker powers in the game, it combined with Low Slash (from taking Adroit Explorer as your PP), and two Melee Basic Attacks (with AP), and then feats spent on actually useful things, is going to be roughly double if not tripple the damage you'd get from all of that Shroud optimization and Shadow Fire.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection. My Guides
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1 year ago ::
Apr 07, 2012 - 9:33AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2009
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While Shadow Fire + Unerring Ambush would indeed be very accurate, the damage it does is pretty bad because all the attacks are resolved into one hit. No matter how many times you hit, at most you're doing 3W+stat. What you need for a good alpha strike is multiple damage rolls, to pile up those static modifiers on each hit. That's why minor action attacks are so good.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 07, 2012 - 10:48AM
#4
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Appreciate the build advice, though the 2nd question still remains unanswered. The idea of the character is to make lots of attacks in the first round, hoping for crits (edit: and I realize that minor action attacks would be helpful). For this purpose Shadow Fire has a use, though it loses some of the optimization potential if it combines poorly with Unerring Ambush (1 extra attack roll instead of 3 extra attack rolls).
Also, the Shroud mechanic and feats are there for story reasons as well, so that's going to stay there. I picked Shadow Fire for another reason; it's a Shadow power, so it'll work with Devastating Shroud to keep the shrouds on the target. The idea is to Shift with the Samurai's power, Shift 3 more if I need to via the Master Thief paragon path class feature, Shroud the target (applying two shrouds via Killer's Insight) and then attack with Shadow Flame. With at least 4 attack rolls and critting on 18-20 I should get a crit, which means the shrouds stay and deals extra crit damage because of the Ki Focus.
Activate the Death Shroud Ki Focus to add an additional shroud, then action point with a MBA. The AP puts another shroud on the target before I attack, so it'll have 4 Shrouds on it for that attack (2 shrouds for the Shadow Fire attack, 4 shrouds for the MBA, which are removed after the MBA) and rolling twice will hopefully crit again, dealing more extra damage for the Ki Focus crit effect.
I know it's a specialized build designed to do a specific thing, and there's other campaign reasons for not making it technically more powerful, but those aren't relevent. My main question is about the interaction between Unerring Ambush and Shadow Fire.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 07, 2012 - 2:10PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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My main question is about the interaction between Unerring Ambush and Shadow Fire.
You'll need to post on the Rules Q&A forum about that - the wording of Unerring Ambush makes it unclear. UA says "...when you attack a creature that has not yet acted...", which could mean different things since there are multiple definitions of "attack"...
My personal interpretation is that you get two sets of three rolls since you resolve the three rolls from SF as a single hit, but others might see it differently.
Edit: I started a thread in Q&A about it.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 07, 2012 - 3:43PM
#6
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Okay, thanks.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 07, 2012 - 8:52PM
#7
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I know this is going to be an unpopular answer, but I need to say it. You can't claim story reasons for needing to use shrouds and shadow fire, because those are mechanical terms; any character that can claim taking assassin multiclass, feats, and powers for a story reason can also claim sticking with powers and feats that aren't terrible for those exact same story reasons. It's even more baffling to me because you claim your mechanical goal is to make lots of attacks at the start of combat so you can crit and do a lot of damage, and you specifically have made choices that accomplish none of that. Wanting to make bad mechanical choices that you feel are interesting because of your character's background/story doesn't make you a better roleplayer, it makes you someone who makes bad mechanical choices.
Character Mechanics and Character Fluff are entirely separate, and nothing that is set in stone in one can have any legitimate effect on the other.
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection. My Guides
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1 year ago ::
Apr 08, 2012 - 8:01PM
#8
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I know this is going to be an unpopular answer, but I need to say it.
Why do you need to say that? It's not at all relevant to the purpose of the thread, nor the question I asked (which has been moved to a new thread in the appropiate forum). If you want to say that, fine. But there's no need.
You can't claim story reasons for needing to use shrouds and shadow fire, because those are mechanical terms; any character that can claim taking assassin multiclass, feats, and powers for a story reason can also claim sticking with powers and feats that aren't terrible for those exact same story reasons.
I didn't claim story reasons for the Shadow Fire power. In fact, I explicitly said I didn't. "Also, the Shroud mechanic and feats are there for story reasons as well, so that's going to stay there. I picked Shadow Fire for another reason". However, I can claim story reasons for wanting to use the Shroud mechanic. It could be part of how the character became an Assassin, it could be how Assassin's are represented in the game world (maybe there's no other type of Assassin in the world). Point is, you can decide to use a certain mechanic for story reasons. I didn't say I needed to use them, I said I wanted to. I don't understand why you have a problem with that.
It's even more baffling to me because you claim your mechanical goal is to make lots of attacks at the start of combat so you can crit and do a lot of damage, and you specifically have made choices that accomplish none of that.
False. The Samurai theme increases the chances of critial hits on the first round of combat and I've taken that option. Rolling attacks twice during the first round of combat increases the chance of a crit and I've taken that feat, as well as other bits that increase the chance of me going first, such as Superior Initiative. Using the Action Point on the first round and taking options that place more Shrouds on the target in the first round also increases damage (Death Shroud Ki Focus, Crimson Eye Action). So you're verifiably wrong about that accusation. You may not agree with those choices, but to say I haven't dont it at all is wrong.
Wanting to make bad mechanical choices that you feel are interesting because of your character's background/story doesn't make you a better roleplayer, it makes you someone who makes bad mechanical choices.
Character Mechanics and Character Fluff are entirely separate, and nothing that is set in stone in one can have any legitimate effect on the other.
You're assuming that I don't know about the Stormwind Fallacy (what you're referring to). Fluff and Mechanics can be separate and they can also be combined. The Fluff can influence the Mechanics and vice versa. Frankly, I'm a little insulted that you felt you had to get on a soapbox and lecture me about these things. I know what I'm doing and why I'm doing it.
Furthermore, your post was not helpful in helping someone optimize. Posters should help people optimize within the limits that either they set for themselves or they are comfortable with. If someone wants to play a sub optimal choice, people should help him with that, and perhaps offer other ideas, but not rant about why they feel compelled to point out the flaws in the character and player as you have done.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 09, 2012 - 12:13AM
#9
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And here we have a classic example of someone being unwilling to accept honest criticism because the critic is being critical.
It's rather amusing that the OP has not only decided to attack the manner in which the response was given, but also to dictate how posters may respond to his request. This is a public forum dedicated to optimization, you cannot condem a post for suggesting a higher level of optimization simply because it doesn't fall within the guidelines you have set for yourself; just because this is your thread doesn't give you the right to decide how people must help you, it only gives you the right to decide what help to use.
At least you're admitting that your choice of using Assassins Shrouds is not required to represent your character's training as an Assassin, and admit that you know you are making poor decisions.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 09, 2012 - 12:40AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jun 19, 2004
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Other words and such and things and whatnot.
If someone wants to play a sub optimal choice, people should help him with that, and perhaps offer other ideas, but not rant about why they feel compelled to point out the flaws in the character and player as you have done.
You are coming to a forum called "Character Optimization" and then wondering why people are raising eyebrows about you not playing an optimized character? You are welcome to play whatever you want, but people here are only going to look at your character from an optimization perspective. If you want to set some parameters on things that is fine, but you need to go "I know its bad, but Im taking this anyway, so lets see what we can do while I'm crippling myself mechanically". Be prepared for the odd person to go "You know this would be easier if you would choose not to cripple yourself..."
To get more to the specific point. In a forum such as this where are you drawing the line between helping and not pointing out the flaws in the character? How is it possible to evaluate the sub-optimal decisions if we are not allowed to point out that the decision is a flaw (from the perspective of an optimizer)? We cannot give criticism on your character without pointing out things we are perceiving as flaws. It is not possible.
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