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1 year ago ::
Apr 08, 2012 - 7:22PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2002
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I dunno, the fighter is probably the 2nd best off striker among the defenders. The only time shield edge block is a good pick is if for some reason you have a non str based build.
From actual play experience, it was great for a multi-marking fighter. I attracted a lot of attention and therefore focus fire and it made it really difficult for DMs to take me down.
The thing that makes Shield Edge Block good is when the DM is convinced that they don't want to violate your mark - at which point, it acts very much like a 3rd level Stun.
NETH4-1 Containing Shadow (co-author) Handbooks
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1 year ago ::
Apr 08, 2012 - 7:53PM
#42
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2010
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Wouldn't rain of blows with the proper weapon be better in nearly every instance?
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1 year ago ::
Apr 08, 2012 - 11:39PM
#43
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Now you have me curious. Please inform and educate me.
What shield-based power does stun or daze? And at will? There's an at-will Daze power?
At what level?
what Source?
I have other questions, but let's start with that.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 08, 2012 - 11:56PM
#44
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Date Joined:
Jan 21, 2011
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Now you have me curious. Please inform and educate me.
What shield-based power does stun or daze? And at will? There's an at-will Daze power?
At what level?
what Source?
I have other questions, but let's start with that.
Any at-will that has forced movement (or pick up a lightning weapon + mark of storm).
Add Hindering Shield to make it slow.
Add Overwhelming Impact to make it daze.
Requires Fighter, and at least level 21.
Adding in the prone/slow on top of the daze is doable, but fairly tricky...at-will daze is easy enough in Epic though.
EDIT: For the record, there's at least one actual at-will daze power I can think of. Intellect Snap, a level 13 Battlemind power. Wouldn't be surprised if there were more psionic ones.
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 09, 2012 - 2:20AM
#45
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Huh. Aftering reading this thread on a whim, it's hit surprisingly close to home. I've been going over defender options for when my campaign starts up again in a couple months, and I too have been wondering if fighters aren't a bit lackluster in comparison to other defenders. Battleminds don't appeal to me, so I don't know much about them, but it seems like with the Warden's (admittedly limited) ability to stop shifts and the paladin's ability to punish everybody they mass-mark, the incentive is quite a bit greater to attack them than the one melee basic the fighter will throw out.
Now I feel like I'm selling the fighter short, as I regularly see them talked highly of, I just don't know where or how. I guess I'd just like it explained a bit more. Maybe I'm just focusing too much on trying to make everything attack me.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 09, 2012 - 3:11AM
#46
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If you build a strait up fighter that hits things, and focus solely on hitting things hard, you are basically playing a Slayer, and you will not be effective as a Defender. Suggesting Rain of Blows over Shield Edge Block is a perfect example of people not knowing how to play a Defender.
Defenders require tricks, Fighter tricks come from applying feats and items to their overall simply but strong powers and features. This makes them a great baseline class, but to a newbie optimizer, there's very little in the way of interesting tricks to pull off, while the easy mass marking and quirky features of the other defenders sparks more creativity and thus more tricks. Truely good fighters require a very subtle, but higher, level of optimization, much like the Sorcerer and Warlock it's the fact that they have that base of simple but strong tools to fall back on which allows you to attempt otherwise absurd tricks like being a Half Elf with Dilettante Beast Switch which becomes a MBA with War Wizard of Cormyr
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection. My Guides
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1 year ago ::
Apr 09, 2012 - 7:15AM
#47
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2002
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Wouldn't rain of blows with the proper weapon be better in nearly every instance?
When I DM, tactically speaking, I want to focus fire on the apparent leader or controller as those are usually the biggest danger to Team Monster's goals. If half the monsters are threatened by a strong mark, then I'll try to overwhelm the defender with focus fire. Strikers who already uncorked a big nova are usually reasonably safe to ignore. There are my priorities.
What Shield Edge Block does is make me wonder if I should just eat the mark damage every round rather than completely lose an attack - because focus fire on the Defender likely won't take him down and if I take down no one in the 1st couple of rounds, the PCs will usually win big.
But eating a mark attack every round, particularly if it is amped somehow(such as slide and prone, extra damage, bigger penalties, etc...) is equally likely to cause a big win.
So what's the right decision to make?
Anyone can kill things dead. Creative Defenders make even experienced DMs uncertain about what the right decision is.
NETH4-1 Containing Shadow (co-author) Handbooks
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1 year ago ::
Apr 09, 2012 - 8:48AM
#48
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Date Joined:
Sep 16, 2011
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so, basically i have not changed my basic outline that i posted last time
but i feel i should list my goals
right now the party consists of a nearly optimized ranged striker and a pretty well optimized melee striker, then there will also be this fighter and a cleric (or warlord perhaps, we took a pretty bad encounter last time)
this fighters goal is primarily designed to meet focus firing and reverse it
given the current adventure (the howling warrens) we have gone up against a group of 6 bugbears twice, they have been once in a V formation, and the second time a U formation, we also went up against a Black Pudding
this way i can charge in and mass mark with Threatining Rush, my AC and Fortitude are high enough that its gonna take them a pretty high roll to get me, even with flanking thanks to my Shielded Sides utility, when they try to get past me, i opportunity attack, my Wis Mod plus Blade Opportunist give me an extra +4 to the roll, and my Shield Push pushes them back one, while my other feat (forgot the name) adds a second square to that push, given the right circumstances, even with charging they wont be able to get to my strikers, i also have two slowing encounters for those who really need to stay away
the second scenario involves one big bad, with tide of iron as long as its large and not huge i push it two, i also slow it with my encounters, then my strikers have an easy time picking it off from a distance (melee striker is ranger so he still does range well)
a well put together monster blocker if i do say so myself, maybe not perfectly optimized but im happy with it
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1 year ago ::
Apr 09, 2012 - 8:55AM
#49
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2010
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Powere selection, build, etc are a small portion of your effectiveness as a defender, most of that will come from your personal tactics.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 09, 2012 - 9:48AM
#50
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Now you have me curious. Please inform and educate me.
What shield-based power does stun or daze? And at will? There's an at-will Daze power?
At what level?
what Source?
I have other questions, but let's start with that.
Any at-will that has forced movement (or pick up a lightning weapon + mark of storm).
Add Hindering Shield to make it slow.
Add Overwhelming Impact to make it daze.
Requires Fighter, and at least level 21.
Adding in the prone/slow on top of the daze is doable, but fairly tricky...at-will daze is easy enough in Epic though.
EDIT: For the record, there's at least one actual at-will daze power I can think of. Intellect Snap, a level 13 Battlemind power. Wouldn't be surprised if there were more psionic ones.
What book is Overwhelming Impact in? I gather it is a Feat?
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Bow down, my subjects, for I am your master! Yesss.....
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For some reason, none of my friends were surprised by this...
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