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Switch to Forum Live View Which wizard sub-classes can use tomes?
1 year ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 5:33AM #21
Duskweaver
Date Joined: Jun 9, 2008
Posts: 3,642

Apr 5, 2012 -- 2:40AM, Plaguescarred wrote:

Under what game element or paragraph is this being stated ? I don't have the book, i don't question what is said and the statement is assuredly rule-oriented, but is it contained in a rule texte ? A Fluff text ? A class ot Implement Tome entry ?  That's what i want to know...."window.parent.tinyMCE.get('post_content').onLoad.dispatch();" contenteditable="true">



Here it is in context:
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 6:01AM #22
Plaguescarred
Date Joined: May 12, 2009
Posts: 16,970
Thanks Duskwaever. Really appreciate the effort. Scan with masking was brilant :P

See the fact this general affirmation about Wizards automatically having proficiency with tomes appears under a general Magic Implement entry is what makes me say it is not necessarly authoritative. It doesn't even state they get it, but have it, saying it as if to remind people all have it.

This book that published the Sha'ir, a Wizard subclass, which 46 pages later state that Wizards automatically having proficiency with tomes, wasn't even given profificncy in tomes in his class write ups, leads me to think it was a sentence tossed without proper consideration.

I am not supposed to discover my Bladesinger Implement Profiency in some Magic Items entries of books not discussing Bladesingers.  I am not supposed to discover my Sha'ir Implement Profiency in some Magic Items entries later in the book discussing Sha'ir neither. 

Hence why i question the validity of this affirmation rule-wise.   If their intent is to squeeze a new Proficiency into already published Classes, they way its done in MME and HoTEC is pretty poorly handled IMO as its questionable both RAW and RAI.

Yan
Montréal, Canada
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 9:12AM #23
RisingZan
Date Joined: Aug 20, 2003
Posts: 754
Does anyone with Arcane Power know if that same text "Wizards automatically have proficiency with using tomes as implements" is used in that book at the start of the tomes section?

 My impression is that they have just copy+pasted the same Tome intro text from every book since Arcane Power without even considering the addition of the subclasses or perhaps without even noticing that text is there.  The developers probably just create the new implements and then some book editor just grabs the old intro text and copies it forward because the developers didn't give notes explicitly changing it.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 10:52AM #24
FLAvatar
Date Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Posts: 1,059
1st paragraph in the New Implements section (Arcane Power, p98)  "The Player's Handbook describes how wizards can make use of orbs, staffs, and wands to help channel and direct their arcane power.  Now wizards can add the tome to their available implements and choose it for their Arcane Implement Mastery class feature."

there isn't anything at the beginning of the Tome item section, except to note that if you can't use tomes as implements, you don't get any benefit from them, their properties, or their powers.



edited to add that I just noticed Plague had already quoted the AP text, so I will just point out that Arcane Initiate was changed in the updates:

Arcane Initiate
{PHB}Page 208: Replace the third paragraph of the Benefit
section with “In addition, you can use wizard implements.” The former text did not take into account new
implements, such as the tome, which was introduced in Arcane Power


which either clarifies or further obfuscates the situation

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1 year ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 1:14PM #25
Duskweaver
Date Joined: Jun 9, 2008
Posts: 3,642
I've just found something that makes me think I've been wrong about the RAI. The feat Witchcraft Initiate, which multiclasses you into (the witch subclass of) wizard does not allow you to use "wizard implements" like Arcane Initiate, but specifies only "orb, staff and wand implements", which implies that those are the only implements witches use natively.

I still think strict RAW is that all wizards can use tomes, though.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 06, 2012 - 5:59PM #26
Plaguescarred
Date Joined: May 12, 2009
Posts: 16,970
Customer Services answered for my Rule-Of-Three submission with the following answer below.

I wish it makes it eventually to the famous column but no guarantees. Or that a FAQ or Rule Update come clarify this confusion in one way or another. 

Spoiler: Show


Hi Yan,
Your question is near and dear to my heart. I too would like to know an official answer. As for what I can tell you, look at the sub-classes of Wizard to see what implements each sub-class is proficient in and go with that for now. I'm hopeful that official errata may clarify all this in the future.

 Wizards of the Coast greatly values the feedback provided by our customers and we here at Game Support interact with a wide variety of departments.  I have passed this concern along to the D&D R&D group and while you may not receive a direct reply from them they will see your suggestion.  

Thank you for taking the time to let us know your thoughts, and if you have any other questions or concerns please let me know!  

Dan
Online Response Crew
Wizards of the Coast

Yan
Montréal, Canada
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 1:32AM #27
Duskweaver
Date Joined: Jun 9, 2008
Posts: 3,642
I suppose we'll just have to wait and see. Thanks for taking the time to submit the question, Plague.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 07, 2012 - 11:48AM #28
SighterGoliant
Date Joined: Feb 5, 2012
Posts: 3
Isn't there a rule that says that specific rules beat general rules?  Wouldn't a rule that says "all wizards can use tomes" be a general rule, while class write-ups are examples of specific wizard rules, thus beating the general rule?
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 4:14AM #29
thespaceinvader
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2010
Posts: 9,777
Specific rules beat general rules when they conflict.  There's no conflict here.

One rule says this subclass of wizard can use *implements*.  Another say ALL wizards can use Tomes.  No conflict, the latter adds to, rather than replacing, the former.
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1 year ago  ::  Apr 08, 2012 - 12:17PM #30
Sea-Envy
Date Joined: Sep 29, 2009
Posts: 1,237
In players handbook it says holy symbols can be worn instead of held in the hand under a general magic implement entry, is this authorative?
 
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