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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 1:03PM
#231
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2010
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Baja do you understand the concept of front-loaded damage (i.e. damage now is more valuable than damage later)?
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 1:07PM
#232
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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I asked that same question several times Kilpatds. Still haven't seen anything on it.
Can I suggest you actually read the DMG sections on encounter design, and try your hand at building some encounters? I'd also suggest you look at LFR modules... I'm going on faith that you're acting in good faith here, so please help me out some.
The baseline encounter is that a party of N PCs encounters N standard monsters of their level. From there you can trade 2 standards for an elite, 2 elites for a solo, or 1 standard for 4 minions.
So for a 5 person party, standard encounters include a solo and 4 minions, 5 standards, 2 elites and 4 minions, an elite+2 standards+4 minions, or 20 minions. And many other combinations. Also, of course, you can raise or lower the level of the monsters, raise some, lower others, add in extra standards instead of raising levels, etc. But that's the baseline.
A standard monster has around lvl*8+24 hp. (Actually, it scales a hair faster than that due to Con score scaling, but that's pretty close. I'd have to check my books for the exact formula). That's futzed with for flavor of the monster (easy to hit but hard to kill?(Brutes have lower AC and more HP) Squishy mage?(Artillery have lower AC but normal HP)), but again there's your baseline.
Strikers that care about optimization should be able to drop a standard monster in 4 rounds. So a party of strikers going 1-1 against a party of monsters will be a 4 round combat. On the other hand, if the party all gangs up on a single monster, they should kill it in a single round.
So that's, again, the baseline.
Well Constructed strikers can expect to chew threw a monster in three rounds, using purely at-will damage. Using powers like Rain of Blows and and action point, a well constructed striker can expect to chew through a standard monster in one round by himself/herself.
That help?
So to answer the hypothetical question I posed: a monster should not even live one round when it's the target of focus fire, and combats should tend to be less than 4 rounds.
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 1:10PM
#233
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2010
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Impossible, I recommend looking at every evalution. If you mean that I did not include the bonuses, then you are correct in my previous post I did not include them. Showing the bonuses for Bedeviling Assault vs RoB would only further my point that Bedeviling Assault is better.
Furthermore, if someone does manage to prove RoB better, then I would ask why RoB is not a daily power.
If you have numbers that prove RoB to be better than Bedeviling Assautl, I say show them.
If there is a rule I am misreading, please show me it, and I will correct the error.
I would say that powers that require allies should be listed separarely, or below powers that don't. Suppose your group has no other melee classes in it. Suppose you only have 1 melee ally, and they are otherwise occupied?
IF you assume 3 encounters/day, RoB gets you 9 attacks (assuming the right weapon choice). This means 9w + mods*9.
Bedeviling Assault gives you a 2W+ mods*1. If you can get an ally to attack your target each round for the course of a standard fight (3-5 rounds) you get 2w+mods*1 + 5w+mods*5 = 7w+mods*6 at best.
Honestly, the better and more combat effecient your group is, the less impressive Bedeviling Assault becomes. But if you play in a group that can't end a fight in less than 8 rounds, they even out.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 1:14PM
#234
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Date Joined:
Oct 13, 2011
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What's amazing to me is how you guys keep responding to his threads and posts.
J
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 1:17PM
#235
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2010
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Attempting to give him the benefit of the doubt that he is just slightly slow on the uptake and not a troll taking us for a ride.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 1:18PM
#236
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2010
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What's amazing to me is how you guys keep responding to his threads and posts.
J
Sometimes it's fun.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 1:24PM
#237
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Date Joined:
Nov 23, 2003
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I think the best course is to evaluate both.
Bedeviling Assault in 5 rounds is 5 attacks though the first one is 2w.
Bedeviling Assault in 3 rounds 3 attacks though the first one is 2w.
Do you remember my earlier post where I tried to explain why multi-attacks are so good? Once you're outside of low-heroic, static modifiers can completely dwarf [W] values...
So ... that's why we generally don't bother mentioning [W] values here, outside of specific combinations that make them valuable again.
So: let's compare that daily to on encounter.
1st: Rain of Blows is an encounter power. Assume (baseline assumption) of 4-6 encounters a day, you get to use it 4-6 times a day, excluding power recharge abilities. Bedeviling Assault is a daily. You get to use it once.
2nd: Given just a level 9 slayer here. [W] is 8, which is about the biggest [W] you can get (Gouge/Mordenkrad). Dex of 18 (+4). Stance for +2 damage. Magic item of +2. +2 Iron Armbands of Power. +1 Feat. I'm ignoring the leader (which is idiotic: the leader's almost more important here).
That's +11 damage in static modifiers. So any extra attack is worth more than +1[W] of the biggest weapon possible in your equivilence. At 9th level. By 16th level, the extra attack is (4 kensai, 6 Dex, 4 magic, 4 stance, 4 IAoP, 3 shard, 5 vuln=31) worth more than 4[W]. And actually more than that because it's another chance to Crit! But let's pretend we're only at 9th or so...
So if I'm grading powers by [W] equivilance, Rain of Blows is 3[W] from the three [W] values that get in there, plus another 2[W] from attempting to equate the extra static damage in terms of [W] values, for an approximate equivilancy to 5[W]. All against one target (dead targets don't attack back!)
Bedevilling Assault is 2[W], plus one MBA because the monster dies before it's your turn again. That's 4[W].
So the encounter power is usually a better power than the daily power. We're done here.
(To be fair, fighting a solo and Dedevilling Assault will be better than Rain of Blows. But if you're fighting a Solo, can I suggest "Rain of Steel" instead? Autodamage is really good)
"Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." Kerrus
Practical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 1:44PM
#238
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You edited your post. I edited mine. I agree with most of what you said above, though it doesn't mention handling OP characters how dmg page 31 does. I went to the monster vault for quick reference on enemies. Heroic monsters lv 8-12 had 70-200hp. On the high end the elites and solos crossed higher into the 200s. Damage has an upper limit for sure. It appears that RoB has reached that limit for standard monsters. The amount of standard monsters someone sees will be considerably more than Solos I believe. I will switch RoB and Bedeviling Assault in a couple days. I don't want to rush it in case someone has more evidence to bring forth. Edit:You edited your post. I thought the same bonuses that applied to Rain of Blows would apply to Bedeviling Assault. I have Rain of Steel on the list. Though at the time I put it on there, I thought it was marking the enemies because I though each hit was being done in melee.
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Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 1:54PM
#239
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2010
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Insulting the one chap who is trying to help you sincerely is not the best way to go about making friends in a new community.
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1 year ago ::
Apr 19, 2012 - 1:56PM
#240
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I deeply apologize if I insult Kilpatds. I appreciate his input as everywhere I see his comments; they avoid personal attacks, and his arguements are sound.
Spoiler:
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Concisely: I want a system where players don't have to pick between mechanics and roleplaying. I hope 5E fails asap so a better system can be made asap.
Spoiler:
Show
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