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1 year ago ::
Mar 23, 2012 - 5:39PM
#31
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Reading the descriptions of cinematic here it was summed up by the statement that surges were cinematic because it allowed for characters to shrug off wounds and keep going... and to a degree that's true.
What cinematic means to me is the game allows the telling of any story that the DM or adventure presents, without has never told me i cant getting in the way. Prior to 4E there were too many story elements you had to either (a) never use, or (b) fudge the rules for, in order to be able to tell them.
Chase scenes were attrocious prior to 4E, because 2-3 bad dice rolls would end the chase, and if it was part of the story, then the prep the DM did would end. Similarly scenes where the characters were captured and had their possessions taken away were almost impossible to do in prior versions, because the power was all with the possessions, not the characters.
The movie analogy is a good one, because it thinks about entertainment. Any of us can name many many movies where the heroes don't win, or characters die, or there is huge amount of pain, failure and loss on behalf of the central characters. What I think you are opposed to is the Michael Bay method of storytelling, which isn't cinematic, it's pure action and glory.
Anyone who has written a script, especially if it has been filmed, will tell you you need to have story development, character development and drama, as well as an interesting story to tell. Miss any one of those any you have a bad story, same with D&D. You don't want to bore your players, you want to challenge them and keep things entertaining.
You can have the superhero type of storytelling where you can be sure of the outcome before you start, or you can have D&D set in Oz (the HBO prison series, not the fantasy world) where the characters change almost constantly, but you need to entertain.
Going back to movies, would you have enjoyed Raiders of the Lost Ark if during the chase scene after getting out of the Well of the Souls Indy failed a skill check, fell off the truck and never saw the Ark again? Probably not. Yet only 15 minutes earlier he was trapped in a room full of snakes with no obvious way out and the Ark in the hands of the bad guy, and the story kept going. Because it was designed cinematically.
You want your system to never be responsible for the premature ending of a story. Proper cinema can tell any story, and that is what you should be aiming for. D&D 4e has never told me I can't tell a particular story, while 3(.5) did it all the time. 1st and 2nd eds were about half way between the two, because they didn't try to cover too much and you could just make it up and run systemless.
Whatever D&D next is, if it doesn't have the freedom for me to present different types of story in different ways, then it will have failed in its promise to me. If I can't picture the heroes covered in dirt and dripping with sweat as they plan their escape from the mines of flame; or them flying on the backs of winged cats while chasing the members of the dragon cult as they carry the princess away; or them leading an army of 5000 soldiers into battle against the evil warlord who has overrun and killed the neighboring kingdom; as well as just walking into a dungeon and killing everything in there for the treasure, then the game is probably too restrictive.
I love 4E because it never told me what I couldn't do as a DM, including letting my playerscake up the story when they wanted to. No prior edition of D&D did that, there was always mechanical reasons why something wouldn't work without ignoring the rules. No matter what the mechanics do, D&D Next should not be a step backwards in this regard.
My thoughts on what works and what doesn't in D&D and how D&D Next may benefit are detailed on my blog, Vorpal Thoughts.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 24, 2012 - 12:49PM
#32
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Date Joined:
Feb 25, 2010
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D&D should never attempt to become a movie or novel simulator. It was never intended to be one. Even Gygax had no desire to play having to jump through hoops to satisfy some wannabe novelists epic story and neither do I. If I want story hour I'll go down to the local library and plunk myself down on the mat with the 5 year olds.
And seriously, if you need "But the heroes never die" and "we won't reach the end of this fabulous story if we don't win" to play D&D then please don't play D&D.
If you're reading this there's a good chance you should be wearing a helmet, consequently I really can't bring myself to care about your opinion.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 24, 2012 - 3:32PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Jan 23, 2012
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You want your system to never be responsible for the premature ending of a story. Proper cinema can tell any story, and that is what you should be aiming for. D&D 4e has never told me I can't tell a particular story, while 3(.5) did it all the time. 1st and 2nd eds were about half way between the two, because they didn't try to cover too much and you could just make it up and run systemless.
How did 3.X do that? I've never had a problem doing whatever I wanted to do with it, so I'm curious how it stymied others.
For those confused on how DDN's modular rules might work, this may provide some insight: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/11/the-world-of-darkness-shines-when-it-abandons-canon
@mikemearls: Uhhh... do you really not see all the 3e/4e that's basically the entire core system?
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1 year ago ::
Mar 24, 2012 - 4:08PM
#34
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Why not have an optional "newb" mode where if you, the player, choose to take it you suffer a -2 penalty to all rolls. This penalty is reduced to -1 at second level and goes away at third. This can help anyone who wants that fanboy feel without affecting anyone else at the table.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 24, 2012 - 5:20PM
#35
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Some of us would rather see D&D evolve instead of remaining stagnant with gameplay paradigms from the 1970s, thank you.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 24, 2012 - 5:30PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Feb 25, 2010
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Some of us would rather see D&D evolve instead of remaining stagnant with gameplay paradigms from the 1970s, thank you.
Sometimes in order to go forward you need to go back, and in order to rebuild you need to get back to the foundation of the concept.
If you're reading this there's a good chance you should be wearing a helmet, consequently I really can't bring myself to care about your opinion.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 24, 2012 - 5:41PM
#37
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Some of us would rather see D&D evolve
Some of us wouldn't.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 24, 2012 - 5:43PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Nov 13, 2004
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When I read 'cinematic,' what springs to mind is stylish action, dynamic environments, and a 'Rule of Cool' approach to physics and probability. None of that seems particularly egregious to anything other than the absolute lowest-of-low fantasy.
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 24, 2012 - 6:03PM
#39
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I've removed content from this thread because Baiting is a violation of the Code of Conduct. You can review the Code of Conduct here: www.wizards.com/Company/About.aspx?x=wz_...Please keep your posts polite, respectful, and on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You're welcome to disagree but please do so in a respectful way! If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the "Report Post" button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty. Thanks!
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1 year ago ::
Mar 24, 2012 - 11:46PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Jul 13, 2011
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I want no assumed default playstyle in this regard. this style of campaign should depend entirely on writing and encounter design.
This.
Mechanically speaking, "Naturalism" (what's there is there go crazy and explore and you can probably technically beat anything if you're smart and lucky enough) is the most important default to support because getting fanfiction.net heroic crap is simply a matter of scale (don't build a bigger world) and selection (stick to at-level stuff all day).
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