Been DMing for a good stretch of time and never had a problem with power gamers before. I seen it as an easy solution to just up the stakes and toss on harder problems to the group.
But the current group I am running a campaign for is a roll over from the noob encounters stock and wile they may not be anywhere close to greatly skilled players they are a good group of friends and hands down the funniest table I have ever run.
Till now when this new guy enters the scene with his lvl 5 elementialist. This build was a fracking beast! In one turn he burned down the boss with over 150 damage and the villain never got his little speech off, never had a chance to pop his special attacks. This new caster has resist out the wazoo and just the right mix of gear to avoid all the normal pitfalls.
I can deal with that by the normal amping up of the creatures but this puts an unfair stress upon the other players but even worse it made the entire table feel like Superman was fighting along side the keystone cops.
Not that he was snooty about it; in fact he was a cool guy. My complaint is not about him it is about the effect on the others. I sat and watched every single one of the players I have been culling for months change into defeated bystanders. An hour into the game they all started talking about scraping their characters and trashing the sheaf’s of storyline on them to make more min/max ones. The “go with the flow” fun the group normally held so steadfast was changed into the dreaded yawn of stale time.
So how do I fix this, how do I keep this fun for everyone? I refuse to target the new guy and kill him out of spite. This campaign has a good rich roll play I don’t want to lose when everyone starts bringing a new min/max each week.
Well firstly, its done. There's ways and means to control it but it might be a little too late.
Talk to the Players together, including the cool guy PowerGamer with them. If they want to go all Min/Max, throw Min/Max Encounters at them. Give the enemies weird immunities (especially say, to the Elementalist's attacks), interrupts similar to what the PCs would get, or special "custom" abilities that are more usually seen on Solos. There's a lot of inspiration to be had reading through the Class Powers from Level 1-10. ( Note : Fit the Enemies into 2 Roles, eg. Lurker / Controller or Soldier / Leader. But don't make everyone be able to do everything. Optionally, each should have 2 Encounter Powers to fit each role, and if both Powers are used, refresh one of them on 3+ or 4+. Auras and Specials are great too. Then if you wish to, up the Creature's Level some more! eg. Hyena - all Adjacent Enemies grant Combat Advantage to its Allies.)
At the same time, understand if the Players want to RP more or fight more. If its the latter, just hand it to them. If its the former, focus on the story, and ask them to consider if they still want to Min/Max their chars. If they agree they want to be more story-oriented, then request the Power Gamer to reduce his Min/Max.
On the flip side, I had a Power Gamer Friend who joined in a game for new people to support one of my early sessions (in fact my 2nd time DMing, and 1st time DMing in front of a bunch of strangers who had never played 4E before). He did a similar thing. To deal with it, the next Session, I suggested he take up the role in the Party that no one wanted - Leader - and let others shine through. After all, if only one Player is expert at CharOp, the best way to make him less limelight stealing is to have him CharOp for what is considered one of the least limelight-stealing party roles - Leader. After all, it fits the theme of an "Advanced" Player shepherding the n00bs through the fold. And come what may, if there's only one Leader, generally speaking the Party IS nice to the Leader.
Oh as a side note, taking Dragon Magazine ( and some new Books, even. I haven't read HoS or HoE) out of the Player Resources is a big big big big help.
Till now when this new guy enters the scene with his lvl 5 elementialist. This build was a fracking beast! In one turn he burned down the boss with over 150 damage and the villain never got his little speech off, never had a chance to pop his special attacks. This new caster has resist out the wazoo and just the right mix of gear to avoid all the normal pitfalls.
This kind of thing drives me crazy too. If players are going to "solve" D&D like it's tic-tac-toe, why bother playing?
Well, for one thing, he got to pick and customize 5 levels worth of gear (or anyway three key items, and probably a few other cheap ones). If you can hold out for a little while, his gear will lose its shine and you do have some say over what he receives and when he receives it. Don't be punative, but don't get pushed over to give him what he believes he needs if you believe he's doing fine. Also, don't be totally passive about this, but go ahead and explain that you're watching all the characters and his needs less help than the others.
Don't ever let a PC interrupt your character's speech.
So how do I fix this, how do I keep this fun for everyone? I refuse to target the new guy and kill him out of spite. This campaign has a good rich roll play I don’t want to lose when everyone starts bringing a new min/max each week.
Two things: First of all, even if they do bring new characters, and the characters are min-maxed, this doesn't need to ruin the roleplaying. If nothing else, you can limit the introduction of new PCs to improved versions of the old ones. Second of all, min-maxing doesn't preclude and interesting character and good roleplaying.
Second of all, don't target the new guy out of spite, target him for utterly plausible in-game reasons. People will find out about how he wasted that boss, and the party's enemies will learn this. The elementalist should be their primary target every time. It's not spite, it's smart play. Be open about this, too. Make it clear in and out of game why he's going to have a harder time of it with the enemies. This doesn't need you have to kill him.
Which brings me to my other suggestions: This guy is good at killing. Ok. He's "solved" that. That means you need to take the focus off that a little and put it on to something else. TV shows have, I think, lots of good examples of how an awesome good guy is kept from using his awesomeness but some gambit the badguy has used. I'm not talking about actually turning off the awesome powers, but making the undesireable. For instance, the bad guy could have a dead-man switch that will cause havoc if he's killed, knocked out, or even stunned.
Which brings me to my other other suggestion: make encounters about something other than killing the badguys. Killing the badguys can be a major part of it, and can make things easier, but shouldn't be the way to win every encounter. Look at Star Wars: killing dozens of stormtroopers, or even all the stormtroopers on the Death Star would not, itself, have achieved the goal of getting everyone safely away. Killing Vader wouldn't have ensured that the Empire wouldn't be victorious. On the flipside, the Empire killed or captured every living person on the Princess's ship but they still failed in the point of that attack and overall.
So, throw the kitchen sink at the party. Make it so this guy has to be this good, but make it so that his skill is required for the others to be able to achieve what's really important about the encounter. You don't need to make them just errand boys, or anything; they can still have enemies to deal with, but it's okay if they're not as good at killing because even if they were it wouldn't necessarily help. I'm imagining the elementalist holding an intersection as guards pour in, while the others deal with the guardians and traps surrounding the idol they've been sent to recover.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
Till now when this new guy enters the scene with his lvl 5 elementialist. This build was a fracking beast! In one turn he burned down the boss with over 150 damage
Unless he spent an action point, and crit both attack, there's no way to achive 150 in 1 turn at level 5. Especially as an elementalist. They don't have dailies.
The best char-op came up with is 90 at level 6, and that requires a somewhat stupid enemy.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Till now when this new guy enters the scene with his lvl 5 elementialist. This build was a fracking beast! In one turn he burned down the boss with over 150 damage
He's either cheating or he's misinterpreted the rules completely, depending on intent: If he KNOWS he's breaking the rules, he's cheating. If he doesn't know, he's misinterpreting.
Either way, that damage output is impossible. Flat out, full-on impossible. There is no legal way to do it.
So how do I fix this, how do I keep this fun for everyone? I refuse to target the new guy and kill him out of spite. This campaign has a good rich roll play I don’t want to lose when everyone starts bringing a new min/max each week.
Start with: Post his sheet here, and how he thinks it works, because I guarantee he's breaking the rules.
Then: Once you've corrected his rulebreaking, if he's still welcome in your game then you ask him to tone it way down. Just ask him, flat out, to please de-optimise his character a bit. Assuming that, after you correct the rulebreaking, he's still distractingly minmaxed.
Confused about Stealth? Think "invisibility" means "take the mini off the board to make people guess?" You need to check out The Rules Of Hidden Club.
this new guy enters the scene with his lvl 5 elementialist. This build was a fracking beast! In one turn he burned down the boss with over 150 damage and the villain never got his little speech off, never had a chance to pop his special attacks. This new caster has resist out the wazoo and just the right mix of gear to avoid all the normal pitfalls.
Compliment him on his character crafting skills (even if he got the build from the charop board, he still implemented it). He has effectively won D&D on the 'normal' setting, and so has earned to right to move to 'hard'.
Allow him to run a much lower character than everyone else (since it's really the only way to preserve balance). This should be a compliment (*not* a punishment), and he certainly seems up to the challenge. It's kinda like a golfing handicap.
Compliment him on his character crafting skills (even if he got the build from the charop board, he still implemented it). He has effectively won D&D on the 'normal' setting, and so has earned to right to move to 'hard'.
Allow him to run a much lower character than everyone else (since it's really the only way to preserve balance). This should be a compliment (*not* a punishment), and he certainly seems up to the challenge. It's kinda like a golfing handicap.
Right you are.
[N]o difference is less easily overcome than the difference of opinion about semi-abstract questions. - L. Tolstoy
So how do I fix this, how do I keep this fun for everyone? I refuse to target the new guy and kill him out of spite. This campaign has a good rich roll play I don’t want to lose when everyone starts bringing a new min/max each week.
That’s what Lair assault is for dambit!
Let them rebuild their characters, without getting rid of the characters. Ask them to keep them close enough to the same that they are recognizably still the same person, but with a power upgrade.
Or, talk to the powergamer in the group, and see what he thinks once the issue is pointed out to him.
If possible, avoid asking him to de-optimize his character.
IMO, it would be better to ask someone to play a new character.
and of course, post the character here, with notes on how he thinks it works, so we can fix the rules problems.
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
I am also with mellored on the check his math. That 150 in one turn at level 5 is too big. Way too big.
And if miraculously his PC is legal ask him to tone it down. If it isn't legal ask him to tone it down anyways and make sure it is legal. DMs and players should all be on roughly the same page as far as charoping like this goes.
At higher levels you can legally make PCs that do outshine each other by that much so he should still tone it down in the future.
I'd just ask him to reign it in. "Hey you are really good at optimizing, but the rest of the group isn't really there yet, do you mind reigning it in?"
You could also pose the challenge to him that it while pulling back, he might want to try a weird or unusual combination. Minotaur Wizard with int 16 or something like that. He can optimize to his hearts content, but he probably won't outshine too many people.
Also 150 damage seems high.
5e comments and thoughts all in one place. Check it out to provide feedback, mock, or steal ideas. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28835423/Krusks_5e_Design_Goals?sdb=1
