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1 year ago ::
Mar 15, 2012 - 8:12PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2009
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According to you guys, Earthstrenght is the only build that should be played at all. so no other build should even exist,...............................hahahhah
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1 year ago ::
Mar 15, 2012 - 8:17PM
#22
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According to you guys, Earthstrenght is the only build that should be played at all. so no other build should even exist,...............................hahahhah
? I don't think anyone said. It isn't true, in any case. While ES is probably the generically strongest Warden option (it certainly has the most support) Wildblood is a very capable mobile defender with a secondary in striker. But we are discussing a build who ideally stands next to something and doesn't move as long as you stay there. Now if Wildblood's advantage is mobility, and it is, and you're making a build that doesn't move.... why would you pick Wildblood? On the flip side, you are making a build that is going to get beat on. Often. Taking a fair amount of damage and having multiple attacks rolls per round made against you. This is the area ES builds excel at and is, indeed, the only thing any Warden build arguably does better then a Fighter. So, again, from an optimization perspective, it is a non-choice. This is Character Optimization.
Any part of that unclear?
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1 year ago ::
Mar 15, 2012 - 9:29PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Nov 17, 2011
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Okay, I have a problem with the idea that the Warden does nothing better than the fighter. Because Wardens are just plain more durable than fighters. It's in their class features. And it does NOT require any one build. It's every build. Fighters get heavy armor. Cool stuff. Wardens get Wisdom/Con to AC. That quickly outstrips heavy armor in the AC department. Fighters get 15 hp base and 6 per level. Wardens get 17 base and 7 per level. Fighters get the sort of durability that Wardens do only through using defensive powers, and that's ANY build of Warden. At all. Period. Go check out Mr. Smith, a well accepted ultimate defender. He has 31 AC at level 16. Even assuming he grabs an armor upgrade, he only goes up to 32. His HP hovers at 126. Again, respectable, but doesn't stand up to what a Wildblood Warden has. community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...The Warden class does NOT need to eschew all other concerns in a quest for more durability. There's no use being the last person standing when your entire party is slaughtered. Here's a fact of life: Opportunity attacks miss. The DM can make crawl actions, even if I'm surrounded by difficult terrain. Elites have action points they can use to get out of the way even proned, stand, and charge. Wildblood gives me a way to go after the threats that do get out of control. Wildblood gives me a way to shut way to down any ability to hurt my team for an entire round (giving them all defender level AC). Wildblood gives me a will defense that is non-suck, keeping some nasty controller abilities off of me. And I STILL am more durable and better able to take hits than Mr. Smith. Optimization and min-maxing are not the same thing. They're not even close to the same thing. Now, outside of a better Second Wind, what does Earthstrength really give me? P.S. Boots of the Fencing Master are so very good, ensuring that I very likely will be at least shifting about, unless I get the dreamed of 8 grid around me. P.P.S. If an enemy does teleport away, once per encounter I can close with him and potentially shut down his attack anyway. Earthstrength can't reliably do that.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 15, 2012 - 10:22PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2010
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You can't lock down everything. You can't tank everything. 4E is not designed for it, it isn't WOW. The rest of your party has surges and defenses for a reason. If you are going to try it, and it's suicide for most defenders, ES is the way to go.
Also min/max and charop are the same bloody thing.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 15, 2012 - 11:41PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Nov 17, 2011
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Oh lord the WoW comparisons start. Just when I thought char op had some hope of being a halfway useful place that lacked the usual mouthbreathers.
Min/maxing is the art of sacrificing a lot to achieve the highest possible value in a certain area. Optimizing is the art of taking the best value-for-money feats and skills to accomplish your role in the party.
A melee striker who can nova burst an elite dead in one round but who has neglected defenses to the point where they get hit on 4s is very min/maxed, but also highly unlikely to be optimal.
/basic education
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1 year ago ::
Mar 16, 2012 - 1:22AM
#26
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You're working under the assumption that HP and defenses are what make an Ultimate Defender: They aren't. You will note that that Warden and a couple of eDefenders are the only Defenders who do not have an Ultimate build. And it isn't for lack of trying. Battlemind|Warden is the only one that even involves a Warden at all, and it is on the lower end of the spectrum for Ultimate Defenders (and frankly has a better variant that is a pure Battlemind).
Fighters, in no uncertain terms, do everything better than Wardens except for have large HP pools. Which is completely useless, as you can just make a Revenant Fighter that is outright unkillable. Or any of hundreds of other nifty tricks, like for instance being a Battlerager and having an enormous amount of THP effectively doubling your HP pool, or, or, or, or, or. None of which is available to a Warden.
Which is not to say people shouldn't play Wardens. They are a fun class and have some fun/cool mechanics/powers. But from a strict optimization point of view? Fighter. Every time. Hell, you can barely make a Warden that has any claim to being optimized without MCing Fighter. That ought to tell you something.
Your example with Mr. Smith is flawed. Con-Wardens, who can grab Second Skin, will have 49 AC at 30, Wis Wardens will have 48, exactly the same, if they started with an 18 and boosted it and took an ED that boosted their Wis. Mr. Smith has 48 and more flexibility with stats/ED. But he doesn't have an auto-hit NAD, Wardens always will. Past level 11 NADs become increasingly more important and AC becomes increasingly less important and Wardens cannot patch their weak NAD without so many resources invested that they fall behind. Wildbloods are off-strikers and cannot even make striker benchmarks while still being defenders, every Fighter build can do so and still be a Defender.
Plus Mr. Smith is still kicking any Warden's builds ass and he is almost a year out of date from new options. The gap is enormous, Fighters are the best supported class of the best supported power source. The only class even close to comparable is Wizards and they aren't a defender.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 16, 2012 - 4:14AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2010
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The survivability of the fighter has kept me away from it this far, done a chaladin and ES warden thus far, both of whom have decent oh sh¥£ abilities. Arena fighter is next on the list. We'll see, if he dies, I'll just make him come back as a revenant :p
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1 year ago ::
Mar 16, 2012 - 9:16AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2009
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i disagree with most about the figther. its true that he hits hard, but that requires a strong investment in wisdom, therefore sacrificing the supposed flexibility of stats. also, the feat support is strong, yes, but its also based on mob being next to fighter. if he somehow gets away, nothing to do. and most of the damage from fighter comes from slashing storm/pit fighter. other than that, damage support is general. and paladin with weakening challenge is way better defender than any fighter, punishing the opponent and reducing damage dealt by HALF, to ALL opponents marked (this can be as large as burst 5, larger than ANY fighter power, and can be done many times with the proper powers)and, hell, he can even be stunned, unconcious or half dead and still be defending (and the does not need an specific ED to defend while stunned or dominated). and paladins with arden vow and some good PP, can outdamage a figther any day, not to say they tend to have better defenses.
Mr.Smith has good defenses based on feats, wich are all general feats. I crafted a Shaman (yes, a leader) with better defenses, save for AC, wich is not that neccessary for a leader. nothing prevents a warden from taking such feats and have even greater defenses............
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1 year ago ::
Mar 16, 2012 - 9:17AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2009
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and, remember that, wardens have font of life, wich is a better survival power than ANY of those in the figthers arsenal. hell, its even a 29.lv feature for slayers and knights, wardens have it at lv 1
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1 year ago ::
Mar 16, 2012 - 10:04AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Oct 23, 2011
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Mr.Smith has good defenses based on feats, wich are all general feats. I crafted a Shaman (yes, a leader) with better defenses, save for AC, wich is not that neccessary for a leader. nothing prevents a warden from taking such feats and have even greater defenses............
You're working under the assumption that HP and defenses are what make an Ultimate Defender: They aren't.
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