Hello, I am searching for a rule, handling the lack of extended rest. In the DMG, Page 159 there is a description of starvation, thirst and suffocation. Even in the DMG2 I can not find any rule describing the lack of sleep ( extended rest). If the party is pushed to do a forced march for several day's, no rule can be found to handle the lack of sleep.
thank you for your information. About this fact I am completely aware. But imagine if characters are forced to push on and can not sleep e.g. for 96 hours (because they are hunted). The disadvantage should be more than not to recover daily powers or healing surges. What about encounter powers? Do characters recover them like normal even with the fact that they miss the sleep of 4 or 5 days? What about other penalty - like rolls to hit, to damage, skill checks, saving throws etc.
Any hero can decide to stay awake for weeks if he agrees not to get daily powers or healing surges. If he is in a situation where there is no need to spend this kind of actions, he can stay awake for years......without any penalty.
I assume a similar rule to thirst or starvation. Endurance check after ? days without sleep. Before loosing healing surges there should be a "weaker" penalty to simulate the fatigue of the character.
Perhaps somebody can give a reference to a rule or have a good idea to simulate this situation with a house rule.
The only penalty is that you don't recover daily powers or healing surges.
As a solution to this problem, stop thinking about tiny irrelevant corner-cases that will never come up. Adding a rule to cover it would just be pointless clutter.
My opinion is thinking in a recource management system is not a pointless clutter (in fact it is the basis of the complete game system).
The party has no light recource? A solution to handle this situation is mentioned in PHB1; Page 262 The party has no water recource? A solution to handle this situation is mentioned in DMG; Page 159 A party member runs out of health because of a disease? See DMG; Page 49 A character runs out of air? see DMG; Page 159.
Introducing this elements in a campaign creates tension and fun.
All this points could also be considered as irrelevant corner-cases that will never come up. The lack of sleep is in my opinion really a basic element where I miss a more detailed description within the D&D 4e rule system.
Ever notice that the only people who "thank you for your opinion" are the ones who are rejecting it unconsidered?
There is a penalty. It was explained to you twice. You don't recover your daily powers or surges. That is the penalty, it naturally accrues already, it is already more severe than all but the most death-begging final stages of diseases, and you're somehow ignoring it.
At a guess, you're ignoring it because a rule that doesn't explicitly state "you didn't sleep" but rather the more general "you weren't able to rest"(content removed)
To pick a nit, that's the penalty for not taking an extended rest, not going without sleep. All sleep mechanically does is help decide which characters are on permanent watch duty, and who takes what Perception check penalty while resting. There are plenty of races that recover powers and surges just fine without a wink of sleep.
Sleep deprivation is never discussed in the rules. In general, we houserule the Endurance checks on the same schedule as going without food (3 days). Most importantly though, we only even deal with it if it is relevant to the story. Having a mechanic just for the sake of having the mechanic adds unnecessary die rolls without adding anything to the fun.
If pushing on without sleep is ever part of something important enough, it has always been as part of a greater skill challenge. Once, the first failure meant we also stopped accumulating Action Points (2nd was inability to crit! I shudder to think of what the 3rd was...). Another time, each failure was a -1 to d20 rolls. I assume it would have maxed out at some point; we never found out. Once we were trapped in someone else's nightmare and sleeping meant we got back surges but not powers while not sleeping meant we got back powers but not surges.
I could see doing it on the disease track, with each succesively worse level being a successively worsening penalty, with a ritual (ye olde Dispel Exhaustion, or at least lump it in with Remove Affliction) that resets you to rested or brings you back up a stage or 2. You could further tailor the penalties to the situation, like maybe in the Far Realm you pick up save penalties to Illusions or Vulnerable Psychic, whereas in the Shadowfell you not only can't regain surges you also lose points off your surge value.
That's the best part about there not being a rule, the possibilities are endless!
INSIDE SCOOP GAMERS: In the new version of D&D, it will no longer be "Edition Wars." It will be "Edition Lair Assault." - dungeonbastard
Try giving them a Slow status condition that cannot be removed without an extended rest, possibly even a Dazed on top of that.
As mentioned, not having access to all of your powers and the ability to heal is a big enough penalty within the 4.0 rule system. If you get into a fight without full resources, you're most likely going to "fail, die trying" (I've always wanted to use that line, thank you William Dafoe lol).
I think you are missing the big picture, painted below:
If you dont get an extended rest, you cannot regain healing surges. When pushed to march (or stay awake), you apply endurance tests (most often performed in skill challenges). The usual result in a failure (in skill challenges I have seen wizard produce) is the loss of healing surges.
The penalty for forced march in most cases is the loss of ALL of your healing surges and the concequences of that. Of course, skill changes is presented really poorly in the rules and relies on DM's.
These rules are already present to deal with this matter, no additional rules are needed. I understand you feel like this should be translated into a combat negative, which are not present in the rules. The rules use much broader ideas then 'sleep' to manage resources and to create a fun and entertaining challenge.
Do heroes really get combat penalties because of less sleep? They are heros.
If you want to be 'realistic' and them get penalties, well, they would just fall asleep, they lose. This does not produce a game effect that players and most DMs are looking for.
