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1 year ago ::
Mar 10, 2012 - 5:28PM
#31
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Mr.Durriken...
Hmm, what have i not tryed? 4th? I have more then one time.
That i find 4 lacking in ereas i find importent, And therfor invest my money in stuff-books, that more suport what i find interesting in the game. Have nothing to do with me NOT investing time/money. or even imagination for d&d.
And age have nothing to do with what i say think or belive in. I can trully understand that you and many other like 4th. and i am glad you do. But for me it do not suport my way of development of caracter-gamestpirit or even fun. I yoined this site. Because i trully whant to see what is happening with WOtC. and the future of the game. That i try to say what make me not enyoing the 4th edidtion. And also in my bad way. Also make a atempht to but into words what many others just let rest, and in sted stick to earlier editions. or pathfinder. I atempht to give people here a feedback on what old players like me think. And i have no problem with you and many other people disagreeing with me. I do not changes my mind for that reason.
May your game be fun and prosper. May your incounters be hard and revording. May your Future be fuild with Game expirience. Regardless on what WotC 5th edition bring to the table, or not bring. My only hope belive is, that a new edition will bring players from different editions more into the same world and knowledge understanding. In sted of more spliting and even less same existence as we have to day. I offer you my GreatAxe any time.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 13, 2012 - 1:46PM
#32
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WoTC can do whatever they like with the realms but they lost thousands of dollars from me as I voted with my wallet over the Realms in particular. I had DDI for 3 years but bought very little 4th ed product. I don't think there will be to many 4th ed holdouts after a few years. I could be wrong but thats the gut feeling atm. 1st ed holdouts may exist but they are probably a tiny % compared to 3.5/4th ed/PF user base and they won't be buyng product in any event. Switching to 4th ed I would think WoTC lost more customers than they gained.
And many of us are seeing a frequency of play at game stores using FR that is just miles ahead of what we saw before 4e, so our collective anecdotal evidence suggests the opposite.
Either of us could easily be wrong, though. Right now, the word from Wizards is that no part of Realms canon will be erased. That suggests, to me, that 4e FR has a decent fan base.
That, and the huge amount of DDI support for FR in the 4e era.
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
I could say anything in D&D is silly though, because it's a silly game and we are silly people.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 21, 2012 - 9:03PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Mar 20, 2007
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Great thread!
D&D has been a factor for my entire life, right from the original “Red Box” basic set and “Blue Box” expert set. I mostly avoided AD&D proper, but pounced in with sword swinging in 2E. I devoured as much 3E, and 3.5, as I could possibly get my hands on. 4E surprised me when it came out. When 4E was released, though I still had great affection for the 3E stuff, I was willing to take a look at it, and even hedged my bets that I would like it by picking up the CE version of the PHB and DMG. Something about 4E didn’t strike the right chord with me. I could never really put my finger on it, and so I pretty much abandoned D&D altogether.
But I came back. Hoo boy did I come back. I'm sure I must have blown about $1,000 in the past 4 weeks alone on 4E stuff …absolutely ridiculous. And I’m looking at actually starting up some games with my friends again. I'm still a little put off by 3 things right now:
#1. The forums are generally pretty toxic. There's still a lot of "gamers" (my peeps) here who are great, but there are some really vocal, angry people on the boards (not just the WotC site, but other sites too). So the overall mood is a little depressing, from a fan standpoint. It actually makes me less excited about the game because there are fewer people that I can have a civilized discussion about it with. #2. WotC seems to be having some issues with their PR. Some of this is blown out of proportion by the forum posters, but I'm not sure if they have really figured out the best way to deal with the forums aspect of the website effectively. To be fair - it's a REALLY hard thing to do. #3. Art Direction – More of a "nuanced" thing. I love the looks they gave the different races and classes - humans, tieflings, and female dwarves are particular great standouts. My one complaint is that I'd personally like to see more artwork in the books that "tells a story" - 95% of the artwork is pure figure drawing, with no setting, scenery, background ... you get the idea. I think they swung a little too far away from that sort of thing (but can understand why they did it.) When they have those types of pictures - they've had some really great pieces!
My take on 4E? I’m a big fan. Mechanically, I love it. As a player and DM, I think it's a great system, and addresses a lot of the "holes" I saw in my beloved prior editions.
5E? Hey, I'll take a look at it. Though it took me a few years to get over my shock of 4E, the brand hasn't let me down yet. I'm sorry that some people had what seems to be such a bad experience with it.
Also - just in case it doesn't get said enough: to all the folks at WotC who built 4E, good job! I like what you did with the place. Also, here's my bucket of money (please don't tell my wife!)
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1 year ago ::
Mar 21, 2012 - 10:54PM
#34
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I like you wizbert. You can stay. :D
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
I could say anything in D&D is silly though, because it's a silly game and we are silly people.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 21, 2012 - 11:41PM
#35
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Some random thoughts
I've only played 3.5 and 4e, and I like 4e.
I think there were some significant problems (expertise and improved defenses feats come to mind), and some bugs which should have been ironed out beforehand.
I also liked the new martial classes in essentials. At first I thought essentials was stupid, but I came around after trying out a Scout. I think that's how it should have been done from the start for some of the classes, just to give the different classes a different feel. The Psionic classes and Essentials proved that you can be balanced and give everyone cool stuff to do without a slavish adherence to AEDU or whatever mechanic you choose. So, knowing that now, I think it would be nice in 5e to give each power source a different "feel" by having each power source do something different.
I'm a little ambivalent on the format of essentials (little softcover books vs. big hardcover books). I like the big Player's Handbooks, but I also think a little book you can pass around the table easily is a good thing.
I like inherent bonuses. I like to play characters who are badass because they're badass, not because they happen to own a badass sword. My opinion is that magic items should be rare and coveted, and their property should be more valuable than their enhancement bonus. A magic item that helps you do something cool is better than boring old +1 to hit.
I like how 4e skills work, it seems to make a lot of sense. Although I would add a couple new skills in - "crafting" comes to mind, because using thievery to fix a wagon is just... dumb.
Skill challenges - I don't know if it's just me, but I've just never been able to do them right.
I think 5e should have more support for "off the grid" play than 4e. I did one or two encounters "off the grid" in 4e, and it worked ok with players who were open to the idea, but it was still a little tricky.
I think 4e could have been just a bit more polished. It's tricky because there's always some munchkin out there who is able to find some game-breaking combo that no one thought of, but I think there's a few things that shouldn't be allowed to exist (frostcheese, I'm looking in your direction), and some unclear wording in a few places.
I'd like less errata if possible, and some kind of system so I don't feel like my book is worthless because of errata (Martial Power's Dual Strike, I'm looking in your direction). Perhaps each book should include a sleeve, and Wizards should make .pdfs of errata publicly available on their website that people can print and put in that sleeve, and in the book cross out the offending section and write "see errata 4.2" or something to that effect. People who buy the dead-tree version of D&D should be able to get up to speed on errata just as easily as people who use mainly online tools like the character builder.
I'll probably stick with 4e as long as I can get a group together. I'll try out 5e, but to be honest I'm not optimistic. First off, I'm already about 90% satisfied with 4e, so I don't have a whole lot of incentive to change unless I find myself alone in the wilderness after everyone else has moved on.
Secondly, I just have a bad feeling that this whole "modular" thing will turn 5e into a big ungainly mess, and instead of pleasing everyone and bringing everyone into 5e, Wizards will come up with something that no one is really happy with and that will have trouble winning people over from other editions. Wizards is basically going to be trying to convice pastrami-lovers and egg salad-lovers to both switch over to a modular sandwich with pastrami and egg salad modules when pastrami and egg salad sandwiches are still on the menu. And lets face it: the modules probably won't have as much pastrami or egg salad as the originals because the efforts of the developers are going to be split between pastrami and egg salad. So, why would a pastrami-lover like myself order a modular sandwich with pastrami when I can order a pastrami sandwich which is better?
I'll also see if I can score some old 4e books on the cheap when people are making the switch - mostly campaign settings, but I'd be interested in anything that completes my "collection" for the right price.
All in all, as much as I have a feeling that it may go down in history as the red-headed bastard child of D&D, I like 4e. I think it was a big step forward from 5e, and Essentials was also a great addition. I was about 80% satisfied with 4e when it first came out, and I'm about 90% satisfied with 4e right now, which is a lot more than I was for 3.5. I'd much rather see 5e be a system that builds on 4e, starts from the beginning with everything we've learned over the past few years of collective experience with 4e, and fixes that other 20% right from the start than be a system that tries to be everything to everyone.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 22, 2012 - 9:07AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Feb 24, 2011
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I'm originally a 2e/WoD player prior to 4e, and I've dabbled in 3/3.5/PF a few times.
Over all, 4e is just the best system. It has a great middle ground. The things that need to be more formal (combat) are dealt with very well while those that are more nuanced (Skills, interactions) are more liberated. This is how I prefer things.
I think AEDU is a great system if for no reason other than being easy to understand, read, and format. Compare a 4e to a 3e book, and you have next to no clue what is formal and what is fluff. 4e's distinction is one of the strengths of it's design.
Character creation is mechanically great, and the scaling attacks and defenses help keep that Skinner Box mentality of increasing in strength more active from level to level.
I think essentials added some great ideas with poor execution. Subclasses work best when presented as a set of options. This-replaces-that type formatting. Keeps them balanced. Similarly, there's no reason that an essentials class should have to pay a feat tax to get powers from their original class. The recurring powers would have been so much better with a caveat that you can take them repeatedly, or take other powers as long as you always have 1 of that recurring power.
Were I to change anything about 4e it would be to make multi-classing far more accessible on general principle. While we achieved a plethora of great classes, the multiclass ideal is one that is core and classic to D&D, and it just doesn't work in 4e. I keep feeling that the better solution would be a multiclass slot, much like the Theme slot has become. Something independent of your feats and other powers. Also, remove opportunity attacks from everyone but defender role classes. It would increase their role identity while also helping clear up a lot of overcomplicating of actions by every player on off turns.
The one other change/complaint I have in 4e is work left undone. There's a great thread over in the Future Releases forum about things that have either not been fixed or were mentioned that never arrived. Leaving the Seeker, Binder and Bladesinger in their current abysmal state is a very sad fate for classes that could be fixed with a little errata and a new feature or additional powers.
However well 5e looks at launch, I know I will still be using 4e for quite some time.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 29, 2012 - 1:54PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Mar 21, 2012
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I have only played 3.5 and 4e as well and I must say I liked 4e better. It is far more balanced and the cleric class is WAY better than in the 3.5 edition (in which I mostly played a wizard or similar arcane class and rarely a cleric). At least in 4e I was not standing around uselessly when I run out of healing or spells. And I can attack enemies while healing/buff at the same time which is great. I play magic users only and I must say that 4e definately made the cleric better.
My only complaint is the huge array of spells that no longer exists, but the rituals do compensate for it.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 29, 2012 - 2:43PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2008
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I find 4E too confusing compared to 2nd edition. I grew up 20 years ago playing 2nd edition and it just seems to come much more natural to me and feels familiar. 4E seems like a whole new game to me. I did THACO so many times and using table savings throws, that the d20 DC check method seems so odd to me. When I am playing 4th edition I still freeze when I can't find THACO on my character sheet then I have to be reminded from other players what I use other than THACO. I rolled for THACO thousands of times growing up as a kid, it is so ingrained into my brain it is hard to unlearn !
I am still trying to get use to healing surges and powers that recharge. Most of the time I completely forget about them because that is not the way 2nd edition was played.
Although I never played 1st edition as a kid, I love this edition the best out of all the editions. I have 1st edition in adobe acrobat on my hard disk and I love playing this edition the best.
On the plus side though I enjoy the way 4E handles non-combat skill better than 2nd edition did.
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1 year ago ::
Mar 29, 2012 - 3:21PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2008
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I find 4E too confusing compared to 2nd edition. I grew up 20 years ago playing 2nd edition and it just seems to come much more natural to me and feels familiar. 4E seems like a whole new game to me. I did THACO so many times and using table savings throws, that the d20 DC check method seems so odd to me. When I am playing 4th edition I still freeze when I can't find THACO on my character sheet then I have to be reminded from other players what I use other than THACO. I rolled for THACO thousands of times growing up as a kid, it is so ingrained into my brain it is hard to unlearn !
I am still trying to get use to healing surges and powers that recharge. Most of the time I completely forget about them because that is not the way 2nd edition was played.
Although I never played 1st edition as a kid, I love this edition the best out of all the editions. I have 1st edition in adobe acrobat on my hard disk and I love playing this edition the best.
On the plus side though I enjoy the way 4E handles non-combat skill better than 2nd edition did.
Well of course if you have played one system for 10-20+ years, a new one is going to feel odd. You've trained yourself to think of the entire experience only one way. It would be like me having only played Super Mario Bros on the Nintendo from 1985 to 2005, and then thinking about playing the Wii. Or even a different game on the NES.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition.Salla: opinionated, but commonly right. fun quotes
Show
You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?
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1 year ago ::
Mar 29, 2012 - 8:09PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Mar 21, 2012
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I find 4E too confusing compared to 2nd edition. I grew up 20 years ago playing 2nd edition and it just seems to come much more natural to me and feels familiar. 4E seems like a whole new game to me. I did THACO so many times and using table savings throws, that the d20 DC check method seems so odd to me. When I am playing 4th edition I still freeze when I can't find THACO on my character sheet then I have to be reminded from other players what I use other than THACO. I rolled for THACO thousands of times growing up as a kid, it is so ingrained into my brain it is hard to unlearn !
I am still trying to get use to healing surges and powers that recharge. Most of the time I completely forget about them because that is not the way 2nd edition was played.
Although I never played 1st edition as a kid, I love this edition the best out of all the editions. I have 1st edition in adobe acrobat on my hard disk and I love playing this edition the best.
On the plus side though I enjoy the way 4E handles non-combat skill better than 2nd edition did.
Well of course if you have played one system for 10-20+ years, a new one is going to feel odd. You've trained yourself to think of the entire experience only one way. It would be like me having only played Super Mario Bros on the Nintendo from 1985 to 2005, and then thinking about playing the Wii. Or even a different game on the NES.
Exactly and that is understandable.
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