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Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Rules Q&A Inevitable Strike(Heroes of Elemental Chaos)
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 26, 2012 - 8:51AM #11
Mand12
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 16,948
It's a theme power, it's not supposed to be very strong compared to using a traditional at-will. 

Extra damage is good, and consistent with other theme powers.  A reroll is way above.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 26, 2012 - 9:04AM #12
thespaceinvader
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2010
Posts: 9,652
A reroll would be strong, but not as strong as the strongest (Sohei and Guardian giving extra attacks).  Having to hit TWICE in order to do 1d8 damage is nowhere near on a par with other powers.  One way or another, it's not written correctly.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part.
The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight.

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1 year ago  ::  Feb 26, 2012 - 9:13AM #13
Mand12
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 16,948
"Not as overpowered as the other overpowered things!" is not the same as "not overpowered"
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 26, 2012 - 9:17AM #14
thespaceinvader
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2010
Posts: 9,652
But hideously underpowered is definitely hideously underpowered.  Needing to hit twice for d8 damage per tier is basically useless.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part.
The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight.

CB != rules source.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 26, 2012 - 10:13AM #15
Mand12
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 16,948
You don't need to hit twice.

Using it on a missed attack roll as a trigger is...dumb.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 26, 2012 - 11:29AM #16
thespaceinvader
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2010
Posts: 9,652
You need to hit in order to usefully trigger the power.  Then you need to hit to deal the extra damage.

Sounds like two hits to me
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part.
The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight.

CB != rules source.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 26, 2012 - 5:57PM #17
Mand12
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 16,948
If you don't hit with any attacks during an encounter you have bigger problems than not being able to use your theme feature.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 1:03AM #18
thespaceinvader
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2010
Posts: 9,652
Indeed.

Still makes it true though.

There's a lot about the way this is written that makes me think it's intended to be a double-roll attack, and little that makes me think it's supposed to be an attack roll for piddling extra damage, which I won't go into because it's fairly irrelevant to the discussion.  It's just poorly written, like so much of this book.  I don't believe it's remotely overpowered.  Powerful, yes.  A good theme power, yes.  But by no means any more overpowered than any of the other good-but-balanced themes such as Earthforger, Elemental Initiate, that Demonspawn one from Neverwinter, Iliyanbruen Guardian, Order Adept, Knight Hospitaler etc etc etc.

I think, when they actually get the writing right and remember that keywords are important, that they've more or less found the balance point for Themes.  It's a shame it comes so late, really.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part.
The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight.

CB != rules source.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 6:16AM #19
Mand12
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 16,948
It's like saying Power Strike requires a hit.  I mean, yeah, it does on a very technical sense, but emphasizing that really is pretty misrepresentative of the actual mechanic.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 27, 2012 - 11:05AM #20
Sir_cirdan
Date Joined: Feb 24, 2012
Posts: 8
I don't have the book in front of me (my friend owns it, not me), but if I remember the wording correctly, the trigger is "make an attack roll." Basically every damage power I've seen is along the lines of "You hit with an attack." As thespaceinvader said, either way, it's poorly worded, but it seems to me that if they had intended the second roll to be a 'confirmation roll' as per crits in 3rd edition, then the trigger would have been worded as 'you hit' rather than 'you attack.' Such as it is, the most intuitive reading is that you use the higher of the two d20 rolls for your attack, and if they both happen to hit, you get an extra d8 damage.

And it's not a true reroll, as my interpretation of the trigger as intended is that you would need to use this power *before* the first roll, rather than after. A reroll would be worded like the elf accuracy power with a trigger: 'You make an attack roll and dislike the result' and effect: 'You reroll and use the second result.'

A comparable damage power like power strike would be applied after a successful hit, a reroll would be applied after a miss. This seems to combine the two into something new entirely.

*Note* Starting Wednesday night, 53 hrs from now where I live...I would venture a guess that there will be an ironwrought character in at least every other encounters group, so for the sake if DMs, it would be very nice if Wizards issued an official statement/eratta/clarification concerning this.
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Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Rules Q&A Inevitable Strike(Heroes of Elemental Chaos)
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