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We've been playing dnd 3.5 for a while now. and we're converting to 4th edition.
And then, I suddenly got the opportunity to "respecc" my character.

As the fantasy racists that we are, we are playing a only human group. We have a dedicated healer/support cleric, a wild sorc (not doing enough damage) a ranger (the simple twin-strikespamming kind) and we have me.
What we lack is a sturdy tank-ish character. We could also appreciate a bit more in the damage department.

My situation leads me to play a defender with a bit of damage potential. As it stands, I'm looking at either a fighter or knight.
We're starting at lv 4. Our DM runs a different XP system and we play with inherent magical bonuses. (No access to magical gear at all at the moment.)
This means I have to make a character that is viable of the bat, and also manages without item-gimmicks like cleats and such.
This pretty much means a polearm build is a no-go. *sad face* Otherwise, we have access to all books; feats; and attacks.

My general thoughts at the moment are leaning towards a fighter/kensei/raven knight. Using either a fullblade or a bastard/shield combo.
I'm interested in the knight class. I have no idea about its actual damage potential, but the class mechanics I understood seems fun. Question is in which direction to take it.

I've been looking at the fully optimized builds here. Sadly, most of them are item-dependant. And if they are not, they usually are late-bloomers.

I need some pointers and suggestions. Quick aswers are very much appreciated. 

A Great Weapon Fighter is a bread & butter defender with solid damage output. You could also go Paladin (Str-based) and take the War Axe proficiency to tank it up.

I've been reading about some fullblade fighters of course. But not really seen any complete builds of it.
And I'm a bit sceptical to it since I notice that the figher guide pretty much thrashes all of the two handed attacks. 

2 of the best knight builds are race dependent

Mellored's Super duper knight (half elf or revenant) is awesome with great damage output (not so awesome in heroic) with White lotus master riposte - Eldritch strike abuse, and with at will prone+ slow is the best build in damage output and ruins the life of adjacent enemies. The only problem is heroic tier.

Other awesome build is thespaceinvader's the blinker, but is eladrin only. Awesome build too but more item-dependent. Great defender and very fun.

For human, i suggest going extra-atwill with Footwork Lure, polearm momentum, martial cross-trainning (come and get it or rain of blows) and racial path (adroit explorer) for pick another fighter encounter power (other come and get it or other rain of blows).

more damage->Gouge+ surprising charge+ headman's chop+frostcheese

Feb 23, 2012 -- 7:22AM, DarthPotater wrote:

Mellored's Super duper knight (half elf or revenant) is awesome with great damage output (not so awesome in heroic) with White lotus master riposte - Eldritch strike abuse, and with at will prone+ slow is the best build in damage output and ruins the life of adjacent enemies. The only problem is heroic tier.

Heroic isn't a problem.  He's just a run-o-the-mill knight in heroic (a bit more tanky, and a bit less damage).  There's very little anyone can do in heroic a significant heads up.  Come paragon, he let's his advantages be known.

Not that i recommend playing it (or most of my builds...).  It's a bit too much to take into most games.  So unless your playing a high powered game, I would avoid it. (or at least the belt and master riposte).

I do have an item independant version though.  Which is much more sutable for regular play.  Though a flail version would probably get going sooner.

I'm playing a Knight at the moment and having an awesome time with it. My damage is high and I'm a pretty strong defender too.

The strength of the knight is in it's obscenely easy acess to world serpent's grasp via hold the line aura. You activate this aura and you hit with an MBA and the guy you hit is now prone. Sadly standing from prone doesnt provide opportunity attacks BUT you will be provising your twin strike ranger with combat advantage and a bonus to attack rolls which he'll love. 

 As a human you can have world serpent's grasp, MC warden, crippling crush and weapon proficiecny craghammer as your feats by level 4.
 That means your basic attacks will knock targets prone and you will do 1D10 (brutal2) + str+con in damage each hit. That's pretty respectable for a defender.  

I like taking Crushing Surge no my human knights so I can at will generate temps on myself...

PharasKn has an amazing flail knight build that might suit you well.

Feb 23, 2012 -- 8:19AM, mellored wrote:

Heroic isn't a problem.  He's just a run-o-the-mill knight in heroic (a bit more tanky, and a bit less damage).  There's very little anyone can do in heroic a significant heads up.  Come paragon, he let's his advantages be known.

Not that i recommend playing it (or most of my builds...).  It's a bit too much to take into most games.  So unless your playing a high powered game, I would avoid it. (or at least the belt and master riposte).

Yes all basic knights are pretty solid in heroic, i mean you can be better than your build, for example with the feats / options i told. Having come and get it or rain of blows plus other heroic goodies.

Still i was talking about half-elf version, because revenants are... well you know.

Feb 23, 2012 -- 12:54PM, DarthPotater wrote:

Feb 23, 2012 -- 8:19AM, mellored wrote:

Heroic isn't a problem.  He's just a run-o-the-mill knight in heroic (a bit more tanky, and a bit less damage).  There's very little anyone can do in heroic a significant heads up.  Come paragon, he let's his advantages be known.

Not that i recommend playing it (or most of my builds...).  It's a bit too much to take into most games.  So unless your playing a high powered game, I would avoid it. (or at least the belt and master riposte).

Yes all basic knights are pretty solid in heroic, i mean you can be better than your build, for example with the feats / options i told. Having come and get it or rain of blows plus other heroic goodies.

Still i was talking about half-elf version, because revenants are... well you know.

Ah...

Yea...  Come and get it is a pretty nice power for knights.  Super Knight does loose access to that.

Hammer Strike and Flail Strike help make both of those options nice (though the Flail gets more support through in-class flail feats and hammer expertise.

Knights can be built as charge-monkeys and still be decent defenders. I have a buddy who uses Hammer Strike and Boots of Adept charging with Defend the Line. Charge, strike converted to daze, slow, shift one to put a different enemy in the aura or to put yourself in between the dazed guy and your allies. It's so fun to play alongside, and also WSG to prone the sloweds. EDIT: And he uses as an Avalanche Hammer.

Its kind of sad that I can't select the Super Knight, it really spoke to me.
Although after certain events in our campgaign, I find myself transformed into an Eldarin. Which opened up some doors.
Especially my favorite prestige class from 3,5. The Eldricht Knight.
That I will play a knight is a granted now.
And since I can select the eldricht as a paragon, I simply have to.

(We're playing a Wheel of Time inspired campaign, and we just had some dealins with the Eelfinn. Wishgranters. One wish, and one payment decided by the Eelfinn afterwards. And just like with the genies, you never get exactly what you ask for.
Our group members kept our wished secret, and the payment too.
My character wished for the power of magic to flow through his veins.
And our DM found it pretty fitting that I got transformed into an Eldarin.
My group members are suspecting I tried to wish for immortality or something. *smirk*
The ranger got a helmet that eats magic. XD The other too didn't get anything obvious that they have told us yet.. ^^

However. I'm looking at the Mage Knight in the Knight build guide. I don't know how optimized it really is. and I have no idea what its main pros and cons are. I wanna play with a bastard sword I think.. Because it seems silly to not go for a shield as a knight.. Is it viable to go two handed as one? (Fullblade is sexy)
Obviously I have to change several feats in the suggested build. Also, I'm not use which of every eldarin specific features/powers/feats to take.
Anyone got the time and interest to help me build one?
At the moment, I'm staring at a half done build..
The character is level 4 now. We play with inherent bonuses. And we have access to pretty much any non magical gear.

Also, some of these builds I find don't make any sense.. :S
Doesn't heavy armor prevent someone from adding his dex/int to his AC? I googled it a bit, and it seems like mastercrafted heavy armor keep the dex/int mods.. Is that true, or are the internetz having a shared glitch? 

agile armor does (+1/2/3 depending on level of armor, but only while you aren't bloodied), but no heavy armor lets you use dex/int mod for AC generally.

If you are going eladrin and want a two handed weapon, you have access to eladrin soldier feat, so is better get a gouge (more damage) or great spear (more accuracy) instead of fullblade.

If you dont have access to magic items, you wont get a staff of travel too. Another good paragon path is evermeet warlock (needs warlock multiclass), because eladrins can teleport every time they hit (feywild guardian feature - dragon 395), and with evermeet warlock you become invisible to adyacent enemies to the square you leave when teleport.

This is just awesome for knights, and improve your damage because enemies cant see you (like +5 to defenses) and all will trigger your mark punish->again teleport and reposition so you can get more enemies in your aura.

Eladrin also opens eladrin swordmage advance and intelligent blademaster (swordmage feats) if you go eldritch knight instead evermeet warlock.

martial cross training (come and get it) is allways awesome for a knight.

With themes you have Iliyanbruen guardian, guardian, sohei, fey beast tammer, devil's pawn, etc.

You have more than one good option with eladrin.

Okeey, here is what I've got so far.

Henry Archer, level 4
Eladrin, Knight
Knight Feature: Shield Finesse

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 14, Dex 10, Int 21, Wis 8, Cha 15.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 13, Dex 10, Int 18, Wis 8, Cha 13.

AC: 17 Fort: 16 Reflex: 17 Will: 15
HP: 47 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 11

TRAINED SKILLS
History +14, Diplomacy +9, Endurance +9, Intimidate +9, Arcana +14

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Bluff +4, Dungeoneering +1, Heal +1, Insight +1, Nature +1, Perception +1, Religion +7, Stealth +2, Streetwise +4, Thievery +2, Athletics +2

FEATS
Level 1: Melee Training (Intelligence) (retrained to Intelligent Blademaster at Level 3)
Level 2: Blade Initiate
Level 4: World Serpent's Grasp

POWERS
Knight at-will 1: Feywild Guardian
Knight utility 1: Defend the Line
Knight utility 1: Glimmering Blade
Knight utility 2: Glowering Threat


I've got some questions left though
Since I don't have any weapon specific bonuses yet, I can go with whatever weapon suits me. Will most likely end up using either a broadsword or a spear right now. Just to get something out of the shield finesse feature. I might ignore that though.. 
As for a weapon later on.. As a weapon group it stands between Heavy Blade and Spear. (And spear is only if I go down the Eldarin Soldier path)

Next question is armor. Since I went with an intelligence based build, I figure a light armor is pretty much a no-brainer. Since I should be able to wear hide and still get AC enough to compare it to plate. I dunno if this choice limits me in some way later on? Or the opposite?

Next question if for a future problem. I noticed that geywild guardian pretty much mimicks a fighters defender feature in which that it is a opportunity action and not a MBA. So I guess this only is a matter for when I reach lv 7. But I might as well ask it now. In which order do my shifts/teleports happen if several sources tells me that I can do it? (Thinking of Bladed Step and Glimmering Blade.)

The last question is really a matter of opinion. What do you think of my fear choice? The first two are too important to ignore since they make up the build. But the third one. World Serpents Grasp. I haven't played with it before, so I don't know how much use I'll be seeing. And I feel is if I might find other feats more valuable at this level?
I'm thinking of Eldarin Soldier if I want to go the Spear path - or just any other weapon bound feat really.
Or perhaps Vicious Advantage since I hope I will reliably keep monsters slowed.
Another choice would be the Imp Defences feat.
The main question is how they compare to World Serpents Grasp. Since I will get Imp Defences later on either way.

Thanks.  

Bugbear Berzerker Using (large) Mordencrad.
Charge /w life ending strike + theme encounter power = 48 average damage
16 avg DPR at will in defense aura mode (+2 defenses)
20.5 avg DPR in offense mode



If your dm ever gives you a magical avalanche hammer........ *drools*


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 4
Bugbear, Barbarian (Berserker)
Heartland Option: Arid Desert
Inherent Bonuses
Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
Theme: Mercenary
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 21, CON 10, DEX 17, INT 10, WIS 11, CHA 8
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 10, DEX 14, INT 10, WIS 11, CHA 8
 
 
AC: 21 Fort: 20 Ref: 18 Will: 13
HP: 54 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 13
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Athletics +12, Endurance +7
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +2, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +2, Heal +2, History +2, Insight +2, Intimidate +3, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +2, Stealth +7, Streetwise +1, Thievery +5
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Mercenary Attack: Takedown Strike
Bugbear Racial Power: Predatory Eye
Multiple Class Utility: Defender Aura
Barbarian Attack: Vengeful Guardian
Barbarian Attack 1: Run Down
Barbarian Attack 1: Jarring Smash
Barbarian Attack 1: Avalanche Strike
Barbarian Attack 1: Life-Ending Strike
Barbarian Utility 2: Shrug It Off
Barbarian Attack 3: Brutal Slam
 
FEATS
Level 1: Weapon Proficiency (Mordenkrad)
Level 2: Unarmored Agility
Level 4: Two-Handed Weapon Expertise
 
ITEMS
Mordenkrad (Large) x1
Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing)
====== End ======

If you're playing an Eladrin Knight with incredible intellect, give taking Ringmail proficiency some really deep thoughts. It's light armor, thus you can benefit from your Int bonus to AC (and stuff like Elven Chain Shirt), and counts as Chainmail for which enchants are available on it.
Agile Armor and Eladrin Armor, for example, can't be used on light armor normally, but they can be used on Ringmail. All the tankish stuff, like Bloodiron Armor or Dwarven Armor, also can be used on Ringmail.

For weapons, I suggest a Flail. Alhulak if you want to save a feat, Triple-Headed Flail if you have one to spend. Flail Expertise means that every slide you do, you can prone the target instead. Come Paragon, Lashing Flail means that every single MBA you're doing can prone the target point blank, no questions asked. Being a Knight, basically every single attack you do is a MBA. You standard action, your OAs, and your punishment, which is an Opportunity Action in terms of economy, but it is a MBA in all effects.

For feats, I'd say stick with WSG through all of heroic, so you have a reliable way of proning, then, if you go the Flail route, retrain it into Lashing Flail at level 11. For your heroic tier, I'd suggest Weapon Focus at 6, Expertise at 8 (whatever weapon you'll be using, like the mentioned flail), Improved Defenses at 10.
Then, imho, pick up Superior Will at 11 which is insanely good to keep control of your character. If you went flails, retrain WSG into Lashing Flail, and at 12 grab Ringmail proficiency.

For PPs, you can go with Eldritch Knight, or, if you keep proning targets either via flails or WSG, Iron Vanguard could be a solid choice, having Con as your secondary.