Aye, but it's the ring granting the circumstance bonus, not a condition or another tool. It doesn't matter what the trigger is, what matters is the source of the effect...the ring, not a circumstance.
And yeah, I could have added Void, Honor, Competence, Tattoed, Tainted, and Equipment bonuses, too, but I really didn't feel like plumbing the depths of all the bonuses that are out there.
==Aelryinth
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade
The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
And yeah, I could have added Void, Honor, Competence, Tattoed, Tainted, and Equipment bonuses, too, but I really didn't feel like plumbing the depths of all the bonuses that are out there.
Most of those are comparatively uncommon, while competence is the one of the basics (being in the SRD, which is as basic as you can get).
Aye, but it's the ring granting the circumstance bonus, not a condition or another tool. It doesn't matter what the trigger is, what matters is the source of the effect...the ring, not a circumstance.
To grant a circumstance bonus, the ring needs to produce some kind of conditional benefit, in the same way that armour bonuses are granted by a magic item producing the equivalent of protective layering, an insight bonus is granted by making you more aware, or a luck bonus is granted by making you more fortunate. Items grant those bonuses because of some effect they produce. In the case of circumstance bonuses, the item needs to make the conditions somehow better for whatever you're doing; if you have two different circumstance bonuses on one item, it means that the item is making the task easier in two different ways.
The text describing circumstance bonuses talks about them not stacking if they come from "essentially the same source". That word "essentially" is important here, because if it was simply talking about the source in terms of a source item generating it, it would simply say "the same source", which is instantly able to be determined without any ambiguity. However, circumstance bonuses could come from two completely different source items, but still fail to stack if they apply their benefit for the same reason.
For example, a magic belt could grant a circumstance bonus to Escape Artist checks by coating its wearer with a layer of oil to make them slippery. It wouldn't stack with any other circumstance bonus due to slipperiness (using a layer of oil or not) because the condition that serves as the source of the bonus is essentially the same. It would, however, stack with a circumstance bonus to Escape Artist checks granted by making your limbs more flexible, even if that benefit was enchanted into the same item (a belt that made you both more slippery and more flexible), because being more flexible is a different source circumstance to being more slippery.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Of course, this sets aside the other issue, that the "SPIRAL" ring and similar items use the item creation guidelines, which explictly say they're not intended for final pricing. For instance, if an item is supposed to provide a +5 bonus to AC, it should be similarly priced to other items that do similar things (balancing for bonus types). This suggests that a SPIRAL ring for saves, with +1 on each bonus type should have about the same cost as a +6 saving throw bonus item. There aren't any existing items that do that, but there are cloaks of resistance +5 for 25k; the ring should cost more than that by its final result alone.
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
Oh, true; the theoretical potential of endless circumstance bonuses, or the easier-to-justify multimode bonuses are different to what the DM might actually permit in their game. Though it is, sort of, the same issue as placing those bonuses on all different items, which far fewer DMs are likely to raise objections against since any evaluation of an item's benefit compared to its cost will only be made for that particular item rather than the overall effect on the character.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
Other unnamed sources of bonus saves would be a pale green ioun stone (awesome item in my opinion) and a wand of major resistance (cheap alternative if you have UMD).
And yeah, I could have added Void, Honor, Competence, Tattoed, Tainted, and Equipment bonuses, too, but I really didn't feel like plumbing the depths of all the bonuses that are out there.
Most of those are comparatively uncommon, while competence is the one of the basics (being in the SRD, which is as basic as you can get).
Aye, but it's the ring granting the circumstance bonus, not a condition or another tool. It doesn't matter what the trigger is, what matters is the source of the effect...the ring, not a circumstance.
To grant a circumstance bonus, the ring needs to produce some kind of conditional benefit, in the same way that armour bonuses are granted by a magic item producing the equivalent of protective layering, an insight bonus is granted by making you more aware, or a luck bonus is granted by making you more fortunate. Items grant those bonuses because of some effect they produce. In the case of circumstance bonuses, the item needs to make the conditions somehow better for whatever you're doing; if you have two different circumstance bonuses on one item, it means that the item is making the task easier in two different ways.
The text describing circumstance bonuses talks about them not stacking if they come from "essentially the same source". That word "essentially" is important here, because if it was simply talking about the source in terms of a source item generating it, it would simply say "the same source", which is instantly able to be determined without any ambiguity. However, circumstance bonuses could come from two completely different source items, but still fail to stack if they apply their benefit for the same reason.
For example, a magic belt could grant a circumstance bonus to Escape Artist checks by coating its wearer with a layer of oil to make them slippery. It wouldn't stack with any other circumstance bonus due to slipperiness (using a layer of oil or not) because the condition that serves as the source of the bonus is essentially the same. It would, however, stack with a circumstance bonus to Escape Artist checks granted by making your limbs more flexible, even if that benefit was enchanted into the same item (a belt that made you both more slippery and more flexible), because being more flexible is a different source circumstance to being more slippery.
but you also have to keep in mind that spellcasters do this kind of stacking stuff ALL THE TIME...it's how they can generate a high AC, using modifiers that aren't found on magic items, or are prohibitively expensive on magic items.
If you're truly going to balance something like this out, then you need to deny the bonuses via cast spells, too...by changing the bonuses to something that doesn't stack. Otherwise, what you get is the 'non-casters don't get nice things' argument.
"The ring...coats in oil...thereby granting you a +2 Circumstance bonus." 'Essentially' is actually MORE inclusive then a pure 'same source' wording, because 'essentially' the ring is giving you the bonus via two different methods. The source is essentially the same, even if the mechanism is different. So, no, multiple circumstance bonuses don't work, because essentially the source for both is the same, even if the delivery mechanism is working differently. While you could argue 'Source' for your two bonuses as 'double-jointed' and 'oil-covered' as being two different sources, 'essentially' they actually come from the same source, despite the descriptive text, and would not stack.
==Bob Drouin
Fighter vs Warblade analysis http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19573526/Analyzing_the_Fighter_vs_The_Warblade
The Lockdown F/20 iconic build http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19856162/A_little_Lock_build_for_you
"The ring...coats in oil...thereby granting you a +2 Circumstance bonus." 'Essentially' is actually MORE inclusive then a pure 'same source' wording, because 'essentially' the ring is giving you the bonus via two different methods. The source is essentially the same, even if the mechanism is different. So, no, multiple circumstance bonuses don't work, because essentially the source for both is the same, even if the delivery mechanism is working differently. While you could argue 'Source' for your two bonuses as 'double-jointed' and 'oil-covered' as being two different sources, 'essentially' they actually come from the same source, despite the descriptive text, and would not stack.
"Essentially" relates to things "of the same essence", or in other words, things of the same basic nature or kind. It's not more or less inclusive, it just describes the type of source to which they're referring. Because one (in the example) is due to slipperiness and the other flexibility, the nature of those source conditions is different and they are essentially different.
If they had said simply "the same source", you would have to incorporate the possibility that something could be operating in two essentially different ways and still be the source of both (as the hypothetical belt of slipperiness and flexibility does; two different essences of operation on one item). By including "essentially" the sentence establishes that the bonuses could stack if they come from sources whose essence or nature is different (as is the case with slipperiness being essentially different to flexibility), but don't stack if the essence of the source is the same.
The use of "essentially" shows us that the sources are differentiated by their essential natures, not merely by whether or not they are being produced by the same magical item.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
