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Feb 6, 2012 -- 4:29AM, Emerikol wrote:

  What if my kidnapped wife cries out to me?  Do I get a surge because I am suddenly motivated to save her?  I know it's a game but....

I'd probably consider it if that came up, in-game.

Feb 6, 2012 -- 3:27AM, CarlT wrote:

What part of:

Clerical divine magic can heal characters, remotely, even when unconscious.  Warlords and Bards can inspire them and keep them going as long as they are conscious - but are less effective (not necessarily ineffective) on unconscious allies; Necromantic magic keeps them going through temporary hit  points, maybe allows a form of 'animation' while unconscious, etc. ...warlords have more heals per encounter than the cleric (because takes fewer personal resources to yell at your allies then it does to channel divine energy) but the cleric can help the characters in times and in ways that the warlord cannot

sounds like 4E to you?  Warlords and bards being unable to heal unconscious characters?  Some unspecified necromantic healer being limited to using temp hit points and perhaps a limited ability to grant temporary consciousness to an unconscious player (I admit I haven't given this one much thought yet.  I included it as an interesting idea from someone else's post).

Just to point out, in 4E...

• Divine magic heals characters, remotely, even while unconscious.  Very powerfully I might add.
• Martial and Bardic healing is often rudimentary relative to Divine healing, although they make up for it by being amazingly powerful in terms of granting buffs, attacks and other means of representing "inspiration".
• Necromantic healing is present in 4E as you described, in the form of the Artificer's Resistive Admixture.  Also, the Artificer utilizes some pretty nifty surgeless healing, but is mostly into the tempHP and buffing/debuffing/summoning thing.
• Warlords in particular do have quite an array of healing powers with him, although still not as many as the Cleric's (who is still the best healer in the game)
• Warlords grant actions and openings.  Clerics grant powerful healing, buffs and saving throws.

Feb 6, 2012 -- 3:27AM, CarlT wrote:

My point is:  4E starts with an assumption, and that assumption is that, while fluff is interesting, balance is more important.  If there is ever a conflict between the two, balance wins out and fluff is de-emphasized and unsupported by the mechanics.

Because instead of mechanics supporting the fluff, it should be story that supports the fluff.  Story + fluff > mechanics, 'nuff said.  Otherwise, we wouldn't be having houserules et al all the way to 4E, right?

Feb 6, 2012 -- 3:27AM, CarlT wrote:

And I think there are few better examples of this then the Warlord heal - which is allegedly non-magical and which reads: 
 

You call out to a wounded ally and offer inspiring words of courage and determination that invigorates your comrade.

and yet is as effective as the cleric's heal (a presumeably magical effect) at healing the unconscious. 

Two things:

1. From the PHB alone, there is an entry that explicitly states that DMs can restrict players from using their powers when particular scenarios come out, like wizards being unable to cast spells while bound (and maybe gagged).  This means that what you're asking is tantamount to DM Empowerment(c) to say "No", which is still present in 4E, albeit heavily de-emphasized as part of the rules (as it should be, IMHO).

2.  Unconscious is explicitly stated as "the creature is unaware of its surroundings", so if it's logical for you that the target does not benefit from the Warlord's healing because the target is unconscious, then there's a rules-related reason for you to say "no".

HOWEVER, for it to be a baseline assumption is a big no-no, because fluff is mutable and can vary between players and tables.

For me, 0 HP doesn't necessarily mean lying in a pool of blood, it could be simply the PC in so much pain, exhaustion or suffering that he normally can't respond (is dying and unconscious)... up until the moment that the Warlord shouts "C'mon you whelp! Stand up! Don't you dare die on me, soldier!" and because the Warlord is very feared by the "dying" PC that he immediately snaps back to reality, invigorated and ready to fight again... even if he normally shouldn't be able to notice the Warlord's presence.

Because there is at least one entry in the rules that state that TPK does not necessarily mean the end of the characters' lives, that TPK could have the PCs waking up hours/days later in prison cells.

[ Technically, TPK should not always mean "total party kill".  It should also mean "total party knockout". ]

Feb 6, 2012 -- 3:27AM, CarlT wrote:

I'd rather see the fluff mechanics be embraced first - and then attempts to balance them applied in ways that try to retain those mechanics.   Perhaps the Warlord's inability to heal the unconscious is balanced by their being able to heal four times an encounter instead of only two.  This might then force the difficult choice - do you want the class with the most healing (least likely to fall unconscious), or do you want the class that can more easily bring you up if you do fall?

And yes, it is much harder to balance the game with fluff mechanics as a starting point.  But I also think that the effort is worthwhile because I do think you end up with a richer game for the effort.

But that is getting off target for this thread.

Carl

Except just like a +2 to CON does not equate to -2 to Charisma, a 4/encounter heal that doesn't work against dying allies does not equate to a 2/encounter heal that lets you recover from unconscious.  If the unconscious condition does not pop up, the 2/encounter heal would never have its time to shine, whereas if the unconscious condition always pops up and the player flat out refuses to play Cleric because "it's not his character concept", then the party is basically screwed... all because the player wants to roleplay his character without having to refluff.

Honestly, it sounds less like "roleplaying" and more "gaming the RPG" if you ask me, since instead of equal opportunity mechanically + leave it up to the players to fluff it up, you have default fluff dictating the mechanics. Because seriously, how can you refluff a system that's dependent on fluff, when even the tiniest details of the fluff is what dictates the mechanics?

I believe that a certain DMG entry in a previous edition effectively prevented you from refluffing a Fireball into a Illusory Dragon Blast because of the implications of that very alteration of that fluff.  Likewise, Magic Missile could never shoot anything BUT silver bolts of magic, because the slightest tweaking fluff-wise would alter the effects mechanics-wise.  In fact, you needed a feat to refluff pre-4E, and that was with spells exclusively.

Back to the topic at hand, if I were to choose between a healing mechanic that
* could be used by anyone, including yourself
* allowed leaders in general (including Clerics) to be more than "just a healer" (unless they choose to be just support characters, although nothing is stopping players from using Aid Another all the time

and a healing system that
* is explicitly limited to a few classes
* has situational (and arbitrary) limitations
* forces the party into the 5-minute (or at most 15-minute) workday

I'd choose the former (healing surges) rather than the latter (Divine-restricted Vancian system magical healing, especially pre-3E when you had to stock up on Cure spells, making you the fighter that heals...) 

Feb 6, 2012 -- 4:29AM, Emerikol wrote:

 
I am intrigued by the concept of taking good ideas from all the editions.  I'm just not sure healing and hit point management is one of those things that can be modularized.  Let's hope.  
 

Wounds and Healing Surges Heroic Reserves can be modularized to provide the same core functionality.. ie make the tough guy have greater daily recovery and serve to limit rampant healing. Wounds allow the games presentation to create a distinction between injury and the fatigue/luck/energy elements. Clerics would also be some of the few capable of removing wounds in combat. Heroic reserves imply ability to use them in various other ways and while clerics still get the distinction of haveing effective Surgeless Healing, its not as distinct perceptually as removing wounds would be.