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1 year ago ::
Feb 02, 2012 - 12:50PM
#1
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I know that out of the vast list of issues reguarding D&D rules, this is probally a relitively small one, but one that has been a personal pet peve of mine since the days of 3.5e. Arcane Necromancers just suck. I know, thats harsh, but it's the truth. Other then the dread necromancer class from 3.5e, every stab at arcane necromancy I have seen has been horridly done and in nine cases out of 10 a cleric can be a better necromancer then a wizard specalized in Necromancy. This was no better displayed then by 3.5e, in which clerics could just laugh and laugh at poor necromancy specalist wizards. Clerics could get more undead then a "necromancer," heal their undead better and get the key animate dead spell many leves before a "necromancer," and get desecrate which the "necromancer" could never get to boot! This has always frustrated me to no end. I mean, a "Necromancer" is specalized in necromancy magic, and it NEVER made any sense why a necromancy specalist was made to have less undead then a cleric and got the animate dead spell a whole spell-level higher then the cleric did. While wizards did try to solve this issue later with the awesome Dread Necromancer class, that class had a botched spell list(Planar binding and no magic circle? Death Ward at two different spell levels...seriously, have you ever heard of proofreading?) and still did not fix the fact necromancy specalist wizards just where not real necromancers next to the cleric(and dread necro itself.)
Fourth edition was not the answer either, though. In fact, 4e botched necromancy for wizards even more then 3.5e did. In 3.5e, necromancy specalists at least had some good non-minion based options to play with, but in 4e, Necromancy as a school for mages was poorly desgined and totally underpowered. Necromancy for wizards went from "some nice things the cleric can take in addition to his awesome options I lack" to "no nice things" and that also disapointed me., So, while this may not be high on most people's priority lists, one of the things I REALLY want to see from 5e is arcane/wizardlynecromancy that is on-par with, not inferior to, the cleric's, EVEN in the area of Minion-based magics.
So, I open the floor up to you all. Did this necromantic discrepency get to you too? Do you, like me, want it fixed in 5e? If so, how? If not, then why should clerics be so much better at necromancy then actual necromancers? This is the *unoffical* thread to discuss any and all issues related to necromancy's mechanical makeup in D&D and what you would/would not like to see in relation to the dark arts of Necromancy in 5e...so have fun.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 02, 2012 - 12:57PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Dec 25, 2009
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This is an intentional design decision, although they've done a poor job implementing it in some editions.
Arcane Necromancers are better at killing the living (Finger of Death, Circle of Death, Power Word Kill, and so on, versus Slay Living).
Divine Necromancers are better at raising the dead (Animate Dead versus Animate Dead, Create Undead, Create Greater Undead).
There's nothing wrong with this split. It's simply the way the mythos of D&D has always worked; undead are a corruption of divine magic, not arcane magic. 4E did a horrible job of necromancy in general (and the fact that necrotic damage is the weakest 4E damage type did not help), so personally, I just ignore it completely in any discussion of necromancy.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 02, 2012 - 1:35PM
#3
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I've never actually cared.
I've only played one Necromancer, ever. In 3e, I split him Wizard/Cleric ... and he was Lawful Good, so it's not like he was creating undead, anyway.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 02, 2012 - 1:36PM
#4
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That is true, but I still feel arcane should be thrown a bone, espcially since in 3.5e the cleric not only was a better animator, but also could get pretty much any arcane necromancy spell he wanted via domains or the divine magician ACF, meaning whatever advantages the wizard had in the killing stuff department was pretty much a non-point once the divine magician ACF was created. Before that, however, wizards where OK necromancers, but I still feel that arcane should get minion-based stuff too since arcane casters seem to me more likely to be "minion masters" seeing as their less-hardy then most clerics, but yet Necromancy, which is by far the highest body-count yealding type of minionmastery magic, was better for clerics. Wizards where only so-so at minionmastery as clerics could out-necromancy them and druids where far better at the summoning thing...and even with summoning spells, necromancy just is better at providing minions. So, if they, say, had a way for wizards to get some kind of other mass-minion-making ability other then necromancy, that would be great, but I can't think of much on that front beyond making constructs cheaper and easier to create and competitive with undead in quanity, which would be pretty broken seeing as constructs > undead, usually.
However, if the lore on wizards vs. clerics at necromancy is going to hold up in 5e, I'd at least like to see another specalized minion-master arcane class along the lines of the dread necromancer, or heck, the dread necromancer itself updated to 5e, since that class was pretty much the ideal fix for the whole "arcane necromancy is not that good" isssue except for it's spell list.(which I usually changed via housrules to fix the glaring issues such as the lack of magic circle for planar binding spells and death ward appearing twice at two different levels.)
What I would REALLY want to see, though, is a prestege class, feat(s) or spell(s) that allow wizards to create monsters alla Dr. Frankenstine. That would be flavorful and awesome, honestly, but could get very VERY broken without some seirous testing and tinkering mechanically. However, it fits with the int-based casting-style of wizards and if animating undead is to be left to clerics, then wizards should perhaps be able to get their mini-armies from making "scientificly" creating abominations and monsters of the living varity?
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1 year ago ::
Feb 02, 2012 - 1:47PM
#5
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Those would be called 'golems'.
And I don't think the ability to create 'mini-armies' should be something PCs should be able to do. Giving one player a horde of creatures to control was a major problem in previous editions; it meant one guy's turn took FOREVER because he had to manipulate all of them. 4e fixed this with the 'one shared pool of actions' rule, which should definitely remain for summons and other sidekicks in 5e. Giving PCs armies with their own full turns is a balance nightmare and unfair to the rest of the table.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 02, 2012 - 1:54PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jul 31, 2005
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I played a million necromancers in 3.5, and I did all variations from Pale Master to Dread Necromancer, to True Necromancer, to Cleric. The Dread Necromancer was by far my favorite, but at later levels, the True Necromancer got to be fun also.
Also, the 3.5 Arcane Necromancer lost some juice compared to a Cleric Animator, but he did get...you know, compensatory stuff, like Wish, and Time Stop, you know? It wasn't a total wash.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 02, 2012 - 2:17PM
#7
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It also has to do with what you're idea of a Necromancer is, specifically.
If you were to say that a Necromancer is a wizard who raises the dead to be his minions, I'd say you're only partially right.
For me, when I think Necromancer I think of a wizard who might commune with the dead or is just a user the the 'black arts.' Raising dead in the same manner that a Diablo 2 necromancer does isn't really my idea of a Necromancer.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 02, 2012 - 2:41PM
#8
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Pathfinder Necromancer gets the Cleric's Turn/Command Undead and you could push a little further with the Undead Sub-School of necromancy for the Bolster Undead ability. Alternatively you could put some necromancy twists on the Summoner (Skeletal Summoning Feat plus Undead Eidolon). They also have a Reanimator Archetype for the Alchemist class which is fun.
Biggest problem with a character based around a horde of minions,is well.... he has a horde of minions.
unless you fudge things by treating them as a single Swarm creature instead of individual monsters, a Horde takes up a lot of table time.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 02, 2012 - 2:48PM
#9
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It also has to do with what you're idea of a Necromancer is, specifically.
If you were to say that a Necromancer is a wizard who raises the dead to be his minions, I'd say you're only partially right.
For me, when I think Necromancer I think of a wizard who might commune with the dead or is just a user the the 'black arts.' Raising dead in the same manner that a Diablo 2 necromancer does isn't really my idea of a Necromancer.
I also think of a Necromancer as being someone who would be very good at destroying undead (which was what my aforementioned character did).
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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1 year ago ::
Feb 02, 2012 - 2:51PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Aug 27, 2007
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I sort of want to eliminate the divine/arcane necromancer division; the difference between an evil high priest necromancer and an evil wizard necromancer in fiction is usually nothing more than flavor text. I'd probably eliminate necromancy completely from divine casters and either make necromancy into its own class or force necromancers to use arcane builds, necromancers should not be casting healing spells.
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