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1 year ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 7:44AM #1
Lady_Ishtar
Date Joined: Mar 11, 2004
Posts: 427
I have seen many threads about the importance of magic items. Should they be part of the math, or just provide additional abilities. I would like to see a little of both.
  1. First of all game math should assume 50% hit rate against same level enemy, +/-10% based on defense being attacked. This is just based off level and stats, not magic items.
  2. +X magic items are kept in game, and still provide bonus to hit and damage. They make you better, as they should, they are magical after all. But they are not required to be competent.
  3. Magic items are out of the player's hands. There still should be guidelines for buying and crafting magic items, but baseline should assume that magic items will be rare and will provide a significant benefit to the user.

Also, magic items with limited use powers need to have powers worth using. I think the new rare items are a good example of what the power level should be.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 9:52AM #2
dkyle
Date Joined: Jun 10, 2008
Posts: 123
I know it's not going to happen, since 5E is all about tradition, but I actually wish they'd drop the "50% hitrate" assumption.  Why is it necessary?  Why should half of our attcks be for naught?  Get rid of that, and you speed up combats right there.  I'd rather defenses be mostly about damage mitigation, and active defenses that might dodge as an immediate reaction.

As far as magic items, I'm of two minds.  On one hand, magic items being special, and not just "tools of the trade" is neat, and helps produce an evocative world.  On the other hand, I love making character builds, and being able to treat magic item slots almost like special feat slots just opens up the character building possibilities that much more.  I don't like being at the mercy of the DM to make my character work the way I want him to work.

I think what I'd like to see is having items that are more casually magical, that still produce useful effects, that a player can generally expect to be able to get if he wants them.  But also have items with more profound magic, and serious story uses, but aren't necessarily better than the normal items in combat, or even useful in combat at all, and aren't quite "Artifacts".  For example, in my 4E campaign, i put in a "Silent Stone" that when removed from its bag, produces absolute silence in the room its in.  It's a radical departure form normal 4E magic item design, but it works out fine, because it doesn't mess with the combat system, but allows them to use it creatively to shape the story.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 9:57AM #3
Gnarl
Date Joined: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 1,476
Your points 1 and 2 are not really compatible.

If your level 20 fighter has a 50% chance to hit level 20 critters with a mundane sword, that same fighter has a 75% chance to hit a level 20 critter with with a +5 sword.

The fight will either be too easy for the level 20 fighter with the magic sword, either too hard for the level 20 fighter with the mundane sword.         
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 10:11AM #4
creases
Date Joined: Aug 17, 2007
Posts: 45
There are a couple of ways points 1 and 2 could be pseudo-reconciled.

First, if the rules assumed that PCs didn't necessarily have the most powerful magic items they were eligible to recieve at their level, but did have magic items they became eligible for several levels back. Eg, if the rules assumed that a fighter of 15th level would have at least a +3 weapon, and the 50% hit rate was calibrated around that expectation. Then a fighter of the same level with a +5 weapon would have only a +10% advantage. The drawback here is that *some* magic items become routine, and not so special anymore.

The other possibility would be that everyone has an innate enhancement bonus. Eg., a fighter of 15th level has a +3 enhancement bonus to attack rolls, and the 50% hit rate is based on that. Then a fighter of the same level with a +5 weapon would, again, ahve only a +10% advantage. But in this case, the main drawback is that PCs "grow out" of magic items; an item that is special and important when the PC gets it, eventually gets eclipsed by their innate enhancement bonus, so that the PC might as well be wielding a mundane weapon anyway.

I'm not sure what a better solution might look like! I am hopeful smarter and more creative people than me can solve this problem. 
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 11:55AM #5
Warder17
Date Joined: Jul 9, 2008
Posts: 69
Go through the transcripts from DDXP, they already said that they are decoupling magic items from the game math, along with moving to a silver based economy and more verity of mundan items.

I think that it's a great idea, I'm sick of my players saying that their characters should have X Y Z magic itematonality to have the game system agreeing with them, magic items should be a reward they shouldn't be expected as an every day occorance by the players.

Also, when magic item bonuses aren't part of the character math it's easier to give the players interesting things instead of +X sword.

Warder 
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 12:39PM #6
maplealmond
Date Joined: Nov 3, 2007
Posts: 302
+X items are boring.  Saying that magic items are +1 is fine, but why even do that?  Why not just make it so that some magic items are Bows of Accuracy and give them the +1 and ignore the rest.

If you want to do hidden magical properties, the game is a lot more annoying with +X items.  As soon as you add a +X to hit, the DM needs to mentally adjust for it.  Far better to have magic items which operate like normal swords when their condtions are not activated.  I want a player to find a "nice, well crafted" blade, and one day have it suddenly leap alive with radiance when they face down a zombie. 
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 2:13PM #7
Arbitrary_Aardvark
Date Joined: Oct 11, 2007
Posts: 902

Feb 2, 2012 -- 12:39PM, maplealmond wrote:

+X items are boring.  Saying that magic items are +1 is fine, but why even do that?  Why not just make it so that some magic items are Bows of Accuracy and give them the +1 and ignore the rest.

If you want to do hidden magical properties, the game is a lot more annoying with +X items.  As soon as you add a +X to hit, the DM needs to mentally adjust for it.  Far better to have magic items which operate like normal swords when their condtions are not activated.  I want a player to find a "nice, well crafted" blade, and one day have it suddenly leap alive with radiance when they face down a zombie. 




Actually, if you want to have magical items that are more accurate, give them a (not at-will) power equivelent to elven accuracy.

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1 year ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 2:51PM #8
Gnarl
Date Joined: Dec 2, 2002
Posts: 1,476

Feb 2, 2012 -- 10:11AM, creases wrote:

There are a couple of ways points 1 and 2 could be pseudo-reconciled.

First, if the rules assumed that PCs didn't necessarily have the most powerful magic items they were eligible to recieve at their level, but did have magic items they became eligible for several levels back. Eg, if the rules assumed that a fighter of 15th level would have at least a +3 weapon, and the 50% hit rate was calibrated around that expectation. Then a fighter of the same level with a +5 weapon would have only a +10% advantage. The drawback here is that *some* magic items become routine, and not so special anymore.

The other possibility would be that everyone has an innate enhancement bonus. Eg., a fighter of 15th level has a +3 enhancement bonus to attack rolls, and the 50% hit rate is based on that. Then a fighter of the same level with a +5 weapon would, again, ahve only a +10% advantage. But in this case, the main drawback is that PCs "grow out" of magic items; an item that is special and important when the PC gets it, eventually gets eclipsed by their innate enhancement bonus, so that the PC might as well be wielding a mundane weapon anyway.

I'm not sure what a better solution might look like! I am hopeful smarter and more creative people than me can solve this problem. 




That's a lot of mechanics just to keep the +X label on your weapon. It's pretty much equivalent to having Enchanted Swords that give you a +1 bonus to hit.

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1 year ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 3:01PM #9
Resurrection_Man
Date Joined: Jun 7, 2011
Posts: 9,530

Feb 2, 2012 -- 9:52AM, dkyle wrote:

For example, in my 4E campaign, i put in a "Silent Stone" that when removed from its bag, produces absolute silence in the room its in.  It's a radical departure form normal 4E magic item design, but it works out fine, because it doesn't mess with the combat system, but allows them to use it creatively to shape the story.




It doesn't stop casters?

Silence use to be a great spell to mess with casters.

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1 year ago  ::  Feb 02, 2012 - 5:04PM #10
Backspace
Date Joined: Sep 8, 2009
Posts: 152

Feb 2, 2012 -- 9:52AM, dkyle wrote:

I know it's not going to happen, since 5E is all about tradition, but I actually wish they'd drop the "50% hitrate" assumption. Why is it necessary? Why should half of our attcks be for naught? Get rid of that, and you speed up combats right there. I'd rather defenses be mostly about damage mitigation, and active defenses that might dodge as an immediate reaction.



I agree with those statements. The benefit I see in the 50% hit rate assumption is its tie to dice rolling and tradition (Redundant, I know.). Dice rolling is fun, and people are familiar with rolling a 20-sided die, adding a modifier and comparing it against a number. They know when they roll below a 10 that there is little chance of success, and when they roll big numbers they probably got a hit.


The problem is variance causing a lot of frustrating game experiences which can last for a single encounter or haunt a player/group for a whole night of gaming. We have all been the person who for a whole night can never roll over a 5. That experience usually sucks.


I like dice rolling, but would like to see most powers have both a hit and a miss case. Every action a player takes should change the game state of an encounter. Players shouldn't be spending a round attacking, rolling, missing, and sighing as they pass their turn.

As for magic items, I think their importance is inversely proportional to the importance of character progression. When there is great depth in character creation through race, class, theme, etc... the need for magic items to be part of the system is low. When character creation is shallow (i.e. not enough to distinguish multiple players in the same class) magic items provide much needed customization. Gear progression is usually just a crutch to fill in for character progression. 

I see magic items as they are today as just feats under a different name. 

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