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Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Character Optim.. Does the Reach of the Kusari Gama stack with...
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Switch to Forum Live View Does the Reach of the Kusari Gama stack with the superior Transcendent Ki-Focus?
1 year ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 12:21AM #1
the_move
Date Joined: Mar 17, 2010
Posts: 421
The Kusari gama (Dragon 404) is already a reach weapon. Does a Superior Transendent Ki Focus (Psionic Power p. 151) give you a total of reach 3 with the Kusari Gama?
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 12:48AM #2
svendj
Date Joined: Apr 14, 2010
Posts: 2,129
I don't think so. According to the rules, you can use a magic ki focus to add its enhancement bonus, critical hit effect and magical properties to a weapon attack. Nothing more, nothing less. The extra reach from a Transcendent Ki Focus isn't a magical property, so you wouldn't add it to the weapon attack. 
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 1:07AM #3
the_move
Date Joined: Mar 17, 2010
Posts: 421

Feb 1, 2012 -- 12:48AM, svendj wrote:

I don't think so. According to the rules, you can use a magic ki focus to add its enhancement bonus, critical hit effect and magical properties to a weapon attack. Nothing more, nothing less. The extra reach from a Transcendent Ki Focus isn't a magical property, so you wouldn't add it to the weapon attack. 


Thank you for the quick answer.

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1 year ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 1:36AM #4
Hephalumph
Date Joined: Oct 6, 2011
Posts: 420
By that line of reasoning, you wouldn't gain any benefits of any superior ki foci when making weapon attacks...

I believe it is added.

A superior implement is not the same thing as a magic implement, so different rules needs must apply.

For example, take the feat and buy a non magical transcendent ki focus. You now have no magical properties whatsoever, and you are not wielding a magical ki focus.

[edit]
Let's look at the actual and full rules text from which you're getting that from;

  Ki Focuses and Weapon Attacks: If you use a magic ki focus, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of weapon attacks you make using a weapon with which you have proficiency. If you have both a magic ki focus and a magic weapon, you choose before you use an attack power whether to draw on the magic of the ki focus or that of the weapon. Your choice determines which enhancement bonus, critical hit effects, and magic item properties and powers you can apply to that power. You can’t, for example, use the enhancement bonus of your ki focus and the critical hit effect of your magic weapon on the same attack.


Note that is only diferentiating between which of the two you get when using a magic ki focus and a magic weapon. It in no way has anything to do with superior implements.

I do believe that the OP would indeed get reach 3 with a transcendent ki focus and a kusari gama.

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1 year ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 2:06AM #5
svendj
Date Joined: Apr 14, 2010
Posts: 2,129

Feb 1, 2012 -- 1:36AM, Hephalumph wrote:

By that line of reasoning, you wouldn't gain any benefits of any superior ki foci when making weapon attacks...



Exactly. I believe the properties of superior ki foci only apply when you make implement attacks with them. As the rules excerpt in your post states, the rules concerning combining a ki focus and a weapon only state that you can add the ki focus' magical properties to weapon attack powers. Since superior ki foci aren't magical, you don't add their properties. 

Note that is only diferentiating between which of the two you get when using a magic ki focus and a magic weapon. It in no way has anything to do with superior implements.



Exactly, so you don't get their properties. (spot a pattern yet? ) Claiming you do get them, just because the rules don't say you don't, seems a reeeally iffy rules interpretation to me.

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1 year ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 2:18AM #6
the_move
Date Joined: Mar 17, 2010
Posts: 421
Well, I think I do get the point of Hephalumph, though.
The rule only applies to magical properties, but not the weapon characteristics itself.
The reach 2 of the Kusari Gama is not a magical property, but a general.
The Transcendent Ki Focus applies a +1 to the weapon reach, so theoretically it could also apply this to any other
reach 2 weapon, as long as you use your Ki Focus, since general properties seem not to be deactivated by that rule.

Also there are magical superior implements like a "Transcendent Manual of Ninjutsu +2" for example.
However that additional +1 reach is is superior, not magical. So is the reach 2 of the Kusari Gama.

That was my original thought at least.
Thanks for your contributions so far.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 2:34AM #7
thespaceinvader
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2010
Posts: 9,777
Superior Implement bonuses NEVER apply to weapon attacks.  This is specified in a sidebar in the book that released them.  So no, the +reach from transcendent will not ever stack with the reach from KusariGama.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part.
The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight.

CB != rules source.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 2:36AM #8
the_move
Date Joined: Mar 17, 2010
Posts: 421

Feb 1, 2012 -- 2:34AM, thespaceinvader wrote:

Superior Implement bonuses NEVER apply to weapon attacks.  This is specified in a sidebar in the book that released them.  So no, the +reach from transcendent will not ever stack with the reach from KusariGama.



So you can use that +1 reach only when fighting with a Ki focus and bare hands (unarmed). Like some monks may do.

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1 year ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 2:41AM #9
thespaceinvader
Date Joined: Oct 28, 2010
Posts: 9,777
Unless the attack has the Implement keyword, the Superior properties do nothing.

ALmost all monk attacks are Implement attacks.  The Superior properties apply.
Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part.
The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight.

CB != rules source.
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1 year ago  ::  Feb 01, 2012 - 2:43AM #10
the_move
Date Joined: Mar 17, 2010
Posts: 421

Feb 1, 2012 -- 2:41AM, thespaceinvader wrote:

Unless the attack has the Implement keyword, the Superior properties do nothing.

ALmost all monk attacks are Implement attacks.  The Superior properties apply.




And what about powers, which include both, the weapon and the implement keyword?

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