Deathless Warrior Prerequisite: 21st level, Con 13, shadar-kai Benefit: If a melee or a close attack would reduce you to 0 or fewer hit points, reduce the damage taken by 5 + your Constitution modifier.
If that's so, shouldn't you apply this AT THE END of the calculation for damage received, rather than along other "resistance". I know you're supposed to take into account resistances before halving for insubstantial, but this is not a "resistance", strictly speaking. Also, it seems to "trigger" when you have a "final number" to compare with your current HP. Should that number be equal to or larger than your current HP value, you'd reduce the damage by 13.
Deathless Warrior Prerequisite: 21st level, Con 13, shadar-kai Benefit: If a melee or a close attack would reduce you to 0 or fewer hit points, reduce the damage taken by 5 + your Constitution modifier.
If that's so, shouldn't you apply this AT THE END of the calculation for damage received, rather than along other "resistance". I know you're supposed to take into account resistances before halving for insubstantial, but this is not a "resistance", strictly speaking. Also, it seems to "trigger" when you have a "final number" to compare with your current HP. Should that number be equal to or larger than your current HP value, you'd reduce the damage by 13.
Insubstantial halves the damages - this is always the last thing you do. RC 312.
Right, and wrong... it is not always the last thing you do, full stop. It is the last thing you do before any reactions, free action triggers, etc. As abk pointed out, you do not know if the damage dealt would reduce you to 0 hit points or fewer until after all resistances (including halving damage from insubstantial) , as well as temporary hit points and other such effects that reduce the damage applied, are calculated and compared to your actual hit point total.
Think of it as an interrupt with the trigger being "a melee or close attack reduces you to 0 hit points or fewer" - this in no way affects resistances, halving effects such as insubstantial, temp hit points lost, etc. It necessarily comes into play after all of those things have been applied.
I challenge you. Make an indestructible character, when he will be facing a monster built under the following rules:
Monster base must come out of one of the monster manual style books (to get damage totals, and basic powers).
Monster may have up to 1 non attack ability swapped with an ability replicating a feat of an appropriate tier if standard, 2 if elite, 3 if solo.
Monster may use up to 1 magic item per tier. (This item would then have to be reflected within it's treasure parcel.)
Monster base may be modified by templates and themes (and anything else similar that might come out in the future) as per DMGs.
Using these rules, I will build a solo who will attack you and daze you for around 2 damage, and then AP to hit you for approximately 400 damage; the AP attack will ignore insubstantial and resist, so, against your current indestructible character, it would do somewhere around 350 damage. For the moment, I am going to assume the monster hits, although that's not completely accurate, simply because I am showing it is POSSIBLE to kill your character, even if unlikely. As a note, the monster would do half damage, which would come to only 165 or so damage if it missed.
I am aware that these monster rules are not completely LFR; but they are also simple enough and common sense enough that I think it would be reasonable for any DM to make monsters using such rules. I also think it should be possible (especially for you) to build a character impervious to such a monster, and I think it would bring our optimized defense characters to a new level if you could figure out how it would be possible.
Topaz Crusader with Iron Warding. Take 2 damage, ignore daze, interupt to reduce 400 to 0. Total damage... 2.
Edit: there's also plenty of ED's with "once per day, when you die". So... it's easy to survive 1 hit. Or heck... just take dark wanderer.
Edit2: The biggest weakness is probably a mindflayer tormentor. "If this power ruduces the target to 0 hit points of fewer, the mindflayer tormentor devours its brain. This kills the target instantly..."\\
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
There's also the everlasting Beastlord, who has his companion in a self-holding bag of holding with 24 hours worth of food, water and delver's bags. He could stand up to Orcus, Demogorgon, you name it... as long as he could get away long enough to renew his preparations. He'll be dazed, he'll be at negative one million damage... but it doesn't matter.
If you're a team player, you could have a dedicated cleric in the bag with him, or at your home base, so that you could make sure it wouldn't stay below zero for long, or at least that both wouldn't be below zero at the same time. It would take an entire dedicated campaign of assaulting and imprisoning and multiple safehouses and ruses and plane-crossing car chases to actually take this guy out for good if you really thought ahead.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Whoops, my bad; I meant could survive that attack, but also survive indefinitately against other sources. The beastlord certainly qualifies (although as a DM against that beastlord I would specifically make the campaign something like Highlander, when the whole point was that people were hunting you, but you were out hunting them too.)
I suppose I should really throw something into the challenge like 'and must also be able to eventually kill their target', even if it takes a million rounds. I mention that to discount my own deathless cleric, because he gets stuck in one spot and can't chase things down, even if nothing can ever kill him or remove him from that spot.
Question about the Beastlord: Obviously you don't die when you go negative, since your pet is fine, but can a monster grab the ranger, knock him down to negative infinite, and then hold him for long enough that the pet starves to death? (The team player beastlord would counter this one too.)
I suppose I should really throw something into the challenge like 'and must also be able to eventually kill their target', even if it takes a million rounds. I mention that to discount my own deathless cleric, because he gets stuck in one spot and can't chase things down, even if nothing can ever kill him or remove him from that spot.
You have something that will survive negitive bloodied?
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Whoops, my bad; I meant could survive that attack, but also survive indefinitately against other sources. The beastlord certainly qualifies (although as a DM against that beastlord I would specifically make the campaign something like Highlander, when the whole point was that people were hunting you, but you were out hunting them too.)
I suppose I should really throw something into the challenge like 'and must also be able to eventually kill their target', even if it takes a million rounds. I mention that to discount my own deathless cleric, because he gets stuck in one spot and can't chase things down, even if nothing can ever kill him or remove him from that spot.
Question about the Beastlord: Obviously you don't die when you go negative, since your pet is fine, but can a monster grab the ranger, knock him down to negative infinite, and then hold him for long enough that the pet starves to death? (The team player beastlord would counter this one too.)
No, the pet would pop out of the self-holding bag in the nearest unoccupied square to the player, then you'd have to kill it before it escapes, all the while ensuring that neither of them get any heals, and facing team beastlord as well. Or, you can just keep him restrained forever and hunt down and kill his pet wherever it may be, if you didn't take the bag route, but that in itself would be an adventure.
So yeah, it's not eternal indestructibility, but it makes him a lot harder to kill than, say, demogorgon, or orcus, or bahamut, without some significant planning and resources.
