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1 year ago ::
Jan 31, 2012 - 5:41AM
#11
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As long as you have the 4 roles covered (leader, defender, controller, striker), any combination of classes works. And even this is only true for new DMs. Once you get the hang of things, you can literally have any party composition you want, as long as you adjust accordingly.
When 4E first came out, I found character creation very easy (I still think its easy IMO). But since release, a lot of options have come out. Now, its painful to watch new players try and create characters (on the online builder), especially without any guidance...
On topic: 4E felt like the first edition that didn't require a lot of tweeking out of the box. I had always taken issue with many rules in previous editions, which lead to houseruleing and handwaveing. 4E streamlined combat, which gave our group the ability to focus on our characters and the events unfolding as we played, instead of rules. I know this is not a universal experience, but it is mine.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 31, 2012 - 5:52AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2009
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For me, it was because combat took too long. I like combats that last maybe 10 minutes. 4e's highly tactical combat system just didn't suit my taste. It's not a bad thing. A lot of people like that. I just didn't.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 31, 2012 - 6:34AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Jan 11, 2012
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Well, some people would also list that as a problem, but the one being discussed here is more that if you play a Paladin in 4e you're expected to choose a god, define a faith, and figure out what it is you will and will not be supposed to do between yourself and your DM, rather than having an official, universal Paladin code that you must follow or you are Doing It Wrong.
Classic PC lineup? Warlord, Ranger, Fighter, Wizard, Rogue would do it. Not coincidentally, this list is also known as "bringing one of every class from PHB1 that worked properly on publication".
Ah, so 4e is more flexible regarding character creation? That sounds pretty good, for me. Especially since I'm using D&D for English language teaching - it's nice to have the possibility of more creativity in character creating. good to have the pre-created characters as an option too though - thx to frothsof for the link
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1 year ago ::
Jan 31, 2012 - 6:36AM
#14
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youre welcome!
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1 year ago ::
Jan 31, 2012 - 9:45AM
#15
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I havn't played alot of older editions but what i gather is...
Combat: 4) Tactical: You get 5-6 turns, things die slowly, making it worthwile to say... push things into a clump for your wizard to blast. 3.5) Simple: You get 1-2 turns, things (including you) die quickly... no need to push things if you can just kill them.
RP: 4) Undefined / Free: You are a paldin / rogue / druid: make up a personality. 3.5) Defined / Restricted: You are a paldin / rogue / druid: You abide by code X.
Balance: 4) Everyone is more or less balanced across all levels 3.5) Some classes start strong, but scale slowly. Others start weak, but become powerful.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 31, 2012 - 1:58PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
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Every reason I've heard people cite for why 4e is horrible and previous editions (particularly 3.5E) are good, I have one of three answers for:
1) I agree, except in my experience 3.5E was worse. Example: slow combats.
2) What do you mean you can't do that in 4E? Every player I know does it a lot! (Or equivalent: No rule for it in 4E? Try PHB1 page xxx.)
3) That is one of the reasons 4E is vastly better.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
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1 year ago ::
Jan 31, 2012 - 2:19PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2006
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Re: RPing in 4e. I think the biggest long term stumbling block is Skill Challenges. They can be great but they default to bad. When done ideally they should look like organic roleplaying, where players just have their PCs do what makes sense in character and that is (assuming PCs who know their own strengths and aren't trying to sabotage themselves) the course of action with the best chances of succeeding. At the end, the SC system should then give you a reasonable guideline for when to call the overall activity a success or failure, and what the implications are in terms of XP or other rewards.
The published rules for Skill Challenges fail here because they set up the wrong 'shape' to things. They assume you are in a scenario where trying and failing is definitely worse than not trying at all. This is reasonable for certain types of situations, such as a diplomatic effort, for example, where saying the wrong thing can make the person your trying to convince start hardening their attitude toward you and not want to keep listening. For a lot of scenarios though, time is the limiting factor and if someone is doing nothing in such a scenario they are probably hurting the odds of overal success, and if they are aiding that is at the expense of making their own attempt. For such a case, you should be targetting a number of successes with each character having a fixed number of attempts (and an aid another costs one of those attempts but gives +2 instead of a success.. only reasonable to try if you are in over your head for accomplishing it yourself). For some situations, it may be that each individual needs to succeed at something, and each failure comes at an individualized cost without a real risk of overal party failure.
Hopefully 5e will revamp the Skill Challenge to address these different shapes and how to reward them appropriately. LFR has been doing a fair bit of experimenting in this area in some of the mods and it has helped.
Another aspect is that it is key to approach the skill challenge from a goal oriented perspective rather than a skill-rolling oriented perspective. IF the party is trying to escape from the city, and one of them has an ability to instantly make a portal the party can hustle through and let close behind them, that should serve as complete success, skill challenge over. If the best they can do is, say, make the whole party fly for a round, then that should probably be usable for a success with an appropriate description of how they slip into a back alley and use it to hop over a wall before the guard can catch them. Etc. Use your judgement as a DM to figure out what makes sense.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 31, 2012 - 5:29PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Sep 29, 2009
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@Istaran- Have you seen the small changes they made to skill chalenges in Saga StarWars Gallaxy of intrigue? It has writen out and named modifiers for some of the problems you point out. It could even be an example of how they improve the system for 5E, I mean D&D next. @Alistair_c another thing that the people who hate 4E complain about is that when the Fighter or Paladin trys to get between the monsters and the soft and squishy Wizard they have powers or class features that give the monster a reason to not target the Wizard. They think that it is too much like the pull / agro / tanking in MMORPGs. Combined with the class roles of defender, controller, leader, striker the nay sayers think it is all too much like an MMORPG. Because knowing what is expected of you and bring good at it is obviouslly a bad idea.
The sea looks at the stabillity of the mountian and sighs. The mountian watches the freedom of the sea and cries.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 31, 2012 - 6:48PM
#19
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What people mean when they say that is that 4e doesn't dictate your character concept for you to nearly the same degree as the game used to. Turns out a lot of people want to play a role from a list, not create something personal.
Not a difficult desire to accomodate (see, for instance, the character concept generation appendix in HotFW), though it will also be an extremely easy area to screw up if they go back to "required" rather than "suggested".
I disagree with this sooo much. While I dont feel that 4E necessarily places you into any specific role, neither did 3E. I would even say that 3.5 was much better at allowing you to mix and match to assing the character personality to the way you want your character to react. 4E is only not bad at it because you can just reflavor all the power descriptions to be the way you want. The 4E powers are kinda all the same eventually and blend together so you just invent your personality outside of what your character can really do. Which has both good parts and bad parts to it.
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1 year ago ::
Jan 31, 2012 - 6:51PM
#20
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Considering Blizzard is rolling in their moneybin while WotC has had to fire a good deal of talent, any comment of "Like a MMO" is coming from a smaller potential source of income.
Also: Marking is brilliant, of the fundamental changes in 4e, it's probably the second best implemented (Striker's +Damage feature being the top) all around with really only 2 mechanical failures and one of those is pretty irrelevant (mind spike)
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection. My Guides
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