We recently can to the end of a major plot like where we fought an epic battle with the main antagonist, the encounter was laid out so our characters would have to fight our way though a few standard monsters before reaching the antagonist.
Our DM planned for the encounter to go like this: we fight our way though the monsters, while the main enemy buffed them, then after the monsters were killed the antagonist would surrender and reveal come information about the next plot line.
However our striker, who is a little crazy and got very lucky managed to take out the antagonist by jumping the gap that kept us from him.
And this isn't the first time we've done something along those lines, it seems every few encounters one of us has a great idea to use the environment or a skill challenge to give us an edge, to be honest our skills seem more useful than our powers at times, and it's good fun for us thinking of this stuff.
The DM was a little moody at the time that his work planning this encounter and his plan for the plot went to waste, but he's over it now. The rest of us are now a little worried about something similar happening again though, because even though we enjoy fighting like that and it adds a bit of fun to the session for us, sometimes it causes tension between us and the DM.
Do you think we should tone it down to give our DM a break, or talk to him about it or what?
Have to talk to your DM about it, I played with some that are great at making stuff on the fly, and others that are not so good with it so when their plans don't follow the way they want it kinda puts them in a sitution where they have no clue what to do next.
Also he should have one or two backup plans (Maybe that guy has a henchmen hiding in a small room that spills the plot, or the PCs find his diary with the needed information) Thats what the one DM we have does since hes not good on the fly gaming.
Personally I love having a group that would think outside of the box. As a DM you have to know that you shouldn't have everything riding on one single thing since players are really good out fouling up well thought encounters (not to say that is a bad thing).
I would let your DM know that you really enjoy doing stuff like that. Hopefully he'll realize that it can be a lot of fun and not be moody about it. He should take it as a challenge and throw stuff at you that would make you be even more creative.
We recently can to the end of a major plot like where we fought an epic battle with the main antagonist, the encounter was laid out so our characters would have to fight our way though a few standard monsters before reaching the antagonist.
Our DM planned for the encounter to go like this: we fight our way though the monsters, while the main enemy buffed them, then after the monsters were killed the antagonist would surrender and reveal come information about the next plot line.
However our striker, who is a little crazy and got very lucky managed to take out the antagonist by jumping the gap that kept us from him.
That sounds very much like the way I play: what is the REAL target? What's the best way to go after it? These other things are just obstacles to be dealt with as quickly and easily as possible - bypassing them works.
For a while I was doing this with an extremely-mobile striker, too.
And this isn't the first time we've done something along those lines, it seems every few encounters one of us has a great idea to use the environment or a skill challenge to give us an edge, to be honest our skills seem more useful than our powers at times, and it's good fun for us thinking of this stuff.
The DM was a little moody at the time that his work planning this encounter and his plan for the plot went to waste
Oh no it didn't. It was an opportunity for the players to show their creativity and versatility.
Do you think we should tone it down to give our DM a break, or talk to him about it or what?
I think he should enjoy it when the players surprise him like that - but what I think isn't important here. If it's wrecking his enjoyment, something needs to change. Because if the DM isn't having fun too, he gets tired of being DM.
* he could learn to enjoy it - not easy if it doesn't come naturally to him * he could learn to design encounters so they get broken less often * the players could discern (or ask) what the expected course of the encounter is, and try to avoid breaking it excessively often; bending it is okay * something else that doesn't occur to me because it's bedtime.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
No plan ever survives first contact with the enemy. Never put anything in the way of the PCs that you don't want to have terminated with extreme prejudice.
So someone killed an NPC that was supposed to reveal plot information. My solution: no, he didn't. He thought he did, but after the fight you find out he's still barely clinging to life and can reveal the next plot before he dies. If he needs to survive longer, the NPC is left for dead but inexplicably shows up later, alive. Stranger things have happened.
Pretty simple. Not trying to be a ****, but the DM needs to figure out that he's the DM and he can make little changes like that to keep the story going. The players' actions don't dictate everything that happens; sometimes the DM dictates what happens.
Alternatively, the NPC does die, but someone else reveals the next plot. He just has to learn to think on his feet.
Also, in extremis, it's acceptable for a DM to just say "No, that doesn't happen because you'll wreck the plot if you do." Yeah, it's not the best solution, but if everyone is there to have fun the players should cut the DM a bit of slack sometimes.
All that having been said, yeah, talk to him about it.
OD&D, 1E and 2E challenged the player. 3E challenged the character, not the player. Now 4E takes it a step further by challenging a GROUP OF PLAYERS to work together as a TEAM. That's why I love 4E.
"Your ability to summon a horde of celestial superbeings at will is making my ... BMX skills look a bit redundant."
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I mean, the DM could just put a scroll as part of the loot...
Would someone know that they ought to use it at that time to speak to that dead person?
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Having been on the receiving end of the Party Born Tactical Nuke to the face of a campaign plot more than once, I can say that it CAN cause some moodiness!
It's all well and good to tell someone to get better at thinking on their feet, but for some folks it is HARD. The naturally gifted story tellers don't get that, at times, but some of us are DMs because we like putting the story together for our friends, but it gets dicey when we start offhanding it to cover something we didn't see coming!
Also, a couple of times when that has happened I didn't have much else planned for afterwards.. the encounter etc was supposed to be the pinnacle of of the evenings festivities, and it gets blown up in three rounds.. now you have a party of amped up PCs who are eagerly looking at you saying things like "What's next? THat was easy!" and "When's the boss fight, har har?!"
My suggestion mirrors one I saw above. Talk to the DM, and tell him how much FUN you are having and how you love that he rolls with it, even when it obviously wrecks his plan. I always like hearing that, especially when I just had an Epic Fail type encounter. I enjoy putting good challenges in front of the party, and when one doesn't work out well, sometimes I feel like I have let the group as a whole down with the evening. So, telling him specifically that you are having a GREAT time can go a long way to mitigating the moodiness!
I agree with most of the posters here. The DM should be glad that the PC's are thinking out of the box. If he's the DM, he should have the ability to ad-lib on the fly and accommodate any unexpected actions.
He can also design encounters so that this type of thing doesn't happen.
