here's my delima. i started tabletop gaming almost exactly a year ago. my first experience was with 4e. i had purchased the red box starter set which i very much enjoyed (despite the fact that poised assault and battle fury never made it out of that set.
so here i am; started a group with others who learned both d&d and 4e with myself. ive played several times, dm'd even more. i love this game, i really really do.
honestly, im still learning the system. we all are. and right when im in the middle of converting ravenloft into 4e and inviting another member to the group anmd getting ready to post the meetup on our meetup group, news of 5e reaches my ears.
first thing im thinking is, now im going to be playing something obselete.
4e fans, how are you coping with this? i do feel better now that i finally buckled down, signed up for the playtest (and hope i may share that information on my gaming blog), and am browsing the forums here, but i cant help but feel.. outdated.
i guess i just dont like change. i mean, ive heard all the arguments about the differences in all the different editions, and looking at ravenloft in 3.5 as a 4e player for the first time, honestly, i dont see much different at all. not even in the stat blocks. flatfooted is the only real thing that makes me go, hmmm. i was expecting something totally different the way 3.5 was made out to be.
other than that, if you ask me, it all comes down to how you play the game and how you run the game.
am i alone in thinking that "5e" will knock us 4e players back a few steps? will you have to be a 3.5 and earlier player to really grasp what the 5th edition will become?
Of the two approaches to hobby games today, one is best defined as the realism-simulation school and the other as the game school. AD&D is assuredly an adherent of the latter school. It does not stress any realism (in the author's opinon an absurd effort at best considering the topic!).
It does little to attempt to simulate anything either. (AD&D) is first and foremost a game for the fun and enjoyment of those who seek the use of imagination and creativity....
In all cases, however, the reader should understand that AD&D is designed to be an amusing and diverting pastime, something which an fill a few hours or consume endless days, as the participants desire, but in no case something to be taken too seriously.
For fun, excitement and captivating fantasy, AD&D is unsurpassed.As a realistic simulation of things from the realm of make-believe or even as a reflection of midieval or ancient warfare or culture or society, it can be deemed only a dismal failure. Readers who seek the later must search elsewhere. - Gary Gygax. 1e DMG.
first thing im thinking is, now im going to be playing something obselete.
I'm a big 4e fan, and I can tell you, I won't be playing anything obsolete. If the next game is better, I'll switch. If it's not, I'll still be playing the best thing in town, in my opinion.
4e fans, how are you coping with this?
Initially, I was pessimistic. Then optimistic for awhile. But as each new announcement comes out, more and more pessimistic.
i do feel better now that i finally buckled down, signed up for the playtest (and hope i may share that information on my gaming blog), and am browsing the forums here, but i cant help but feel.. outdated.
i guess i just dont like change. i mean, ive heard all the arguments about the differences in all the different editions, and looking at ravenloft in 3.5 as a 4e player for the first time, honestly, i dont see much different at all. not even in the stat blocks. flatfooted is the only real thing that makes me go, hmmm. i was expecting something totally different the way 3.5 was made out to be.
other than that, if you ask me, it all comes down to how you play the game and how you run the game.
It, uh, it gets a lot more different than that. The group is always a huge influence, but the rules do matter.
am i alone in thinking that "5e" will knock us 4e players back a few steps?
No, not at all.
will you have to be a 3.5 and earlier player to really grasp what the 5th edition will become?
Probably. I was a 3.5 player, though, and a 1e player before that, so it's hard for me to imagine how this looks from the perspective of soemone who has only played 4e.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool.
Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
First, WELCOME to the hobby! You are not playing a dying Edition. Just look at all those fans of the retroclones and earlier editions, it appears a lot of people are still playing them.
Unless you are looking at organized play, you are good to go. So long as your group enjoys the game and is having fun, everything else are just details.
I've played AD&D very well into 3.X lifetime. So it really depends into what your campaign is about were your campaign is going. There are a lot of Player Options throughout the splats, and I really liked the Dark Sun Campaign Setting and Creature Catalog, and I recommend both books if you want a change of pase or for your DM to poach some campaign seeds and ideas. Also the Eberron Player's Guide, if only for the Warforged, which is incredibly cool if you like Constructs as characters.
One of 4th Edition's greatest strenghts is that most things can be reflavored in many ways, so that leaves the door open to the imagination. I say you should keep playing the game you like until you are tired of it and/or want to try something else. Don't like the fluff about the last war? Make them Warforged sentient golems, shield guardians with a bounded soul, clockwork automatons, inebitables, etc. you name it. I also like the PHB 3 because it introduces the Psionic power source, and I really like Psionics. Check the splats, there are options for everything you can think of, and most things can be reflavored to fit your needs.
As to D&D Next, I am skeptical, I will wait and see, and as Pashalik_Mons said, if it doesn't strike my fancy I will keep 4th Edition and still think I am playing the best game around.
And yes, 3.5 is not that different from 4th Edition, the same d20 system is in place, it's just that the Player Options are more transparent in 4th, whereas in 3.X they are dressed up in a lot of fluff, which sometimes makes it hard to divorce it from the actual options.
Take flat-footed, as you mentioned, for instance. It was when you haven't acted yet, but because it was so similar as having your DEX bonus negated or be inmobilized and some other things, it got consolidated as granting Combat Advantage. Every time you see something working on characters that are flat-footed, treat it as working on characters granting Combat Advantage and you shouldn't experience any issues.
EDIT: I am also curious to ask, which is your favorite class/race so far?
And yes, 3.5 is not that different from 4th Edition, the same d20 system is in place, it's just that the Player Options are more transparent in 4th, whereas in 3.X they are dressed up in a lot of fluff, which sometimes makes it hard to divorce it from the actual options.
I disagree: 4e is very different from 3.5 in one point: (Almost) every class has the option to go "all out" at a certain point in the game, because (almost) every class has daily powers. I do agree that there are strong and weak classes and there are strong and weak options, but for the players to mechanically set their spotlight in a situation it is important to do something, that is different from your normal mechanical options.
In 3.5 only the casters could do that. Only the casters had a high-level spell slot to spend. Generally, only the casters had many different mechanical options at their disposal (they were called spells. But in the end they are options cast in a set of rules) - most noncasters had none or very little options at their disposal.
For the fighter in 3.5 the typical battle was: Close the distance to the enemy, then whack him several times. Variations did exist - like disarming an opponent, tripping, whirlwind blows and flanking, but they were hardly as present and necessary and had as much impact, as the ability to chose the right spell. I have very often seen one spell change the whole battle. I have by far not nearly as often seen one fighter action change the course of a whole battle.
It's not really about how you roll the dice and how you achieve a success. IMHO.
If 5e's Vanciant Casting compared to non-vancian casting opens that gap again, that is a situation I would call problematic. If non-casters get the chance to have a similiar high impact through their actions, realized mechanically in different ways, that would be awesome! (Double so, because it would indeed mean, that for the first time in my life I would see an RPG, which succesfully manages to balance several differently working subsystems into a harmonic whole!)
I disagree: 4e is nvery different from 3.5 in one point: (Almost) every class has the option to go "all out" at a certain point in the game, because (almost) every class has daily powers. I do agree that there are strong and weak classes and there are strong and weak options, but for the players to mechanically set their spotlight in a situation it is important to do something, that is different from your normal mechanical options.In 3.5 only the casters could do that. Only the casters had a high-level spell slot to spend. Generally, only the casters had many different mechanical options at their disposal (they were called spells. But in the end they are options cast in a set of rules) - most nocasters had none or very little options at their disposal.
For the fighter in 3.5 the typical battle was: Close the distance to the enemy, then whack him several times. Variations did exist - like disarming an opponent, tripping, whirlwind blows and flanking, but they were hardly as present and necessary and had as much impact, as the ability to chose the right spell. I have very often seen one spell change the whole battle. I have by far not nearly as often seen one fighter action change the course of a whole battle.
It's not really about how you roll the dice and how you achieve a success. IMHO.
If 5e's Vanciant Casting compared to non-vancian casting opens that gap again, that is a situation I would call problematic. If non-casters get the chance to have a similiar high impact through their actions, realized mechanically in different ways, that would be awesome! (Double so, because it would indeed mean, that for the first time in my life I would see an RPG, which succesfully manages to balance several differently working subsystems into a harmonic whole!)
Thank you for posting your disagreement in such a polite and civil manner. Actually, I agree with you, on all counts. But it is true, for someone just looking at the bare bones mechanics from a setting book like Ravenloft, 3.5 and 4th Edition are more like cousins than different species. And that's because they are the same game, D&D.
However, you are very much correct in the sense that in 4th Edition, everyone has Player Options, or the ability to 'go all out' as you said. Before, the spells were the only things that granted Plot Power to the Player, things that could change a fight in one turn, as you said. Until 4th Edition, nothing a Fighter could do could even resemble such plot power. We are like minded individuals, let us stay in good terms.
As someone to came into game late in 4e also, I'm half and half optimistic and pessimistic. I think each iteration of D&D has been an improvement on the previous, so in that respect, I'm looking forward to it. However I think some of the legacy mechanics of original D&D, such as daily spells, should be left in the 1970s.
As with anything, I'll probably buy 5e anyway and give it a go, and judge it on its own merits, rather than believe what other people say.
Thought #1: I've decided this NDA is stupid, and will not touch these 5e forums again until some example characters or some rules are available to peruse.
Thought #2: When 5e does come out, I probably won't buy out of spite (my gaming group still refuses to even try 4e; this time around THEY can buy the gorram books).
4e D&D is not a "Tabletop MMO." It is not Massively Multiplayer, and is usually not played Online. Come up with better descriptions of your complaints, cuz this one means jack ****.
5e won't make 4e disappear, and I still have every 4e book I own. Sure, I may have to do a bit more buying to grab everything I may need before the product is discontinued, but that's a different story all together.
How I feel about 5e is subjective. Every new edition I look at it with leery eyes. In 3.0, I looked at 3.5 funny. Same with 4e, but each edition was able to capture me better than the last edition did. I'll give 5e a good proper try before I pass finaly judgement, but it doesn't stop me from giving it the spooky eye int he mean time.
