I will second the vote that: You list by how many of each type of monster you can kill by round 5, and specifically include the fact that they are different targets so overkill has to be accounted for. (So if you are Current Blender you can kill say, 9 solos and 2 elite brutes by round 5) If you want to list exact damage that's cool, but extra.
I will vote against the 2 round nova including prep round. I've always though that wasn't really feasible; it's much more useful to see what you can nova without any preperation round.
I'll also ask: will there be a place in this thread for party builds? (As a specific example, would there be a place for my Alpha-Strike squad in this thread? It might motivate me to actually finally finish up the last few details for it.)
You list by how many of each type of monster you can kill by round 5, and specifically include the fact that they are different targets so overkill has to be accounted for.
As nice as it would be to count for overkill, it's just not feasible to calculate when every monster has variances in HP.
I could, hypotheticly, make a build that had exactly 8*level+24 damage * 2 (twin strike). So my number would be 2, but in reality, i could 1-shot a monster 1/2 the time. Since some monsters will have more HP, some less, sometimes i would roll high, sometime low...
But if you come along and make a build that does 9*level+24 damage * 2 (twin strike), you would be 1-shotting monsters more often, doing more damage, but your number would still be 2.
So unless we want to get into heavy statistical annalisis (like, count every monsters HP and make a bell curve), we can't accuratly acount for overkill. And even then we wouldn't really have a better comparison.
I will vote against the 2 round nova including prep round. I've always though that wasn't really feasible; it's much more useful to see what you can nova without any preperation round.
While not feasible for "real' games to spend a turn casting buffs/debuffs. It's kinda fun to see what you can pull off.
Though I think the vote was for "how much damage can you do in 2 rounds".
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I have a rather big announcement: I've made a google doc for community viewing and editing pleasure DPR King Spreadsheet I will be having 6 main sheets(level 1, level 6...). Check it out and tell me if you like it.
How to submit a build
Post a reply to this thread or the old DPR king candidates 2.0 thread. I'll add your row in the spreadsheet. I'll convert your DPR into KPR/RPK and double it for Kills per 2 rounds, Kills per 3 rounds... I'll use a link to your post(or use link you provide) so when someone clicks on your candidate in the sblock list it will go to your post/thread. If you want to outline a round by round breakdown of how much expected damage you deal (using encounter powers, power points...) I will have the Kills per 1 round respect that and so forth.
Make a new worksheet in my spreadsheet, named after your alias(google or WotC) and you can go to town with that sheet with all of your builds. Create a dynamic link to your Kills per X round calculation. In the Link column you would paste the address for your sheet (when you navigate to a sheet within a google spreadsheet the URL changes so that anyone that clicks on that URL goes directly to your sheet). You can then do a level by level breakdown of your build if you so wish. People can comment on how you calculate your DPR / KPR
Some of the benefits of using google docs
I can dynamically create the HTML I would use in each of my first 5 posts(sblock list of all the candidates). I will then only need to copy/paste those cells into my WotC post and voila, up to date sblock of all the current candidates with proper links, cheese usage, KP5R
You can sort the candidates by KP1R to see who's the fastest at "Hey you, explode!", or mean KPR to see who's the best at sustained.
No more "number of rounds" bias either favoring Nova builds or favoring at-willers. Sort by what matters to you. Nova builds can sit in same bin as as everybody else.
Chat in google docs. Click on another user(see side pane in spreadsheet) to see what cell they're looking at. This is an alternative to IRC but this is DPR focused.
Use spreadsheets to calculate expected damage and let others see your formulas and offer fixes
Backward compatability. Because I have a link column you can post whatever link you like (other google spreadsheet, other forum, post in WotC thread) and you can update it whenever you like.
Filter candidates by cheese usage. Each candidate can get up to 6 cheese tags. In cell K1 you can select what cheese element you want to sort by and that column will show which builds use that cheese element. Either sort A-Z or Z-A to see who either has it or don't have it. "Which builds have been tagged as being LFR legal" "Which builds don't use frostcheese"
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
One issue. Blender's (and i'm sure others) KP2R, KP5R, and KP10R isn't a linear. His KPR actually get's better for longer battles.
Like if i'm going for 2 rounds, i'd use 2 PP for brutal barrage and 12 on brillant recovery. If i'm going 5 rounds, it's 6 for BB, and 6 for BR. If i'm going 10 rounds, 10 for BB, and 2 for BR.
A few other examples of KPR being round dependant would be... Other PP builds, with lower augments getting better returns. Ongoing damage, spacing them out helps. sage of ages reroll, will be more helpful if you don't dump all your attacks at once.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
One issue. Blender's (and i'm sure others) KP2R, KP5R, and KP10R isn't a linear. His KPR actually get's better for longer battles.
Like if i'm going for 2 rounds, i'd use 2 PP for brutal barrage and 12 on brillant recovery. If i'm going 5 rounds, it's 6 for BB, and 6 for BR. If i'm going 10 rounds, 10 for BB, and 2 for BR.
A few other examples of KPR being round dependant would be... Other PP builds, with lower augments getting better returns. Ongoing damage, spacing them out helps. sage of ages reroll, will be more helpful if you don't dump all your attacks at once.
Here's the wonderful thing about this Public spreadsheet, You don't need my permission to change it. I just wanted to use your candidate as an example. Feel free to simply adjust the numbers manually, or create a sub-sheet like I have my 'Borg' sheet and outline your KPR breakdown there and dynamically point to those numbers.
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Regarding a literal killcount/overkill: we already use assumed/normalized defenses for our calculations. What is different with using the same to calculate the normalized hp for an at level bad? If we aren't using a bellcurve for the defenses, it seems odd to claim we would have to do that for hp.
One issue. Blender's (and i'm sure others) KP2R, KP5R, and KP10R isn't a linear. His KPR actually get's better for longer battles.
Like if i'm going for 2 rounds, i'd use 2 PP for brutal barrage and 12 on brillant recovery. If i'm going 5 rounds, it's 6 for BB, and 6 for BR. If i'm going 10 rounds, 10 for BB, and 2 for BR.
A few other examples of KPR being round dependant would be... Other PP builds, with lower augments getting better returns. Ongoing damage, spacing them out helps. sage of ages reroll, will be more helpful if you don't dump all your attacks at once.
Here's the wonderful thing about this Public spreadsheet, You don't need my permission to change it. I just wanted to use your candidate as an example. Feel free to simply adjust the numbers manually, or create a sub-sheet like I have my 'Borg' sheet and outline your KPR breakdown there and dynamically point to those numbers.
No objection to that. Kinda why i put down it's real KP4R early. To be an example.
And actually, your mean KPR works nicely. Though i'd reduce the number of colums, to say... KP2R, KP5R, and KP10R. I kinda don't want to calculate damage 6 times.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Regarding a literal killcount/overkill: we already use assumed/normalized defenses for our calculations. What is different with using the same to calculate the normalized hp for an at level bad? If we aren't using a bellcurve for the defenses, it seems odd to claim we would have to do that for hp.
Cause overkill makes you round your damage, and will causes rounding errors.
If we did average damage... If i did 3 damage vs a 3 HP target, we'd calulate 3 vs 3, and round down to 3. If i did 1d60 damage vs a 3 HP target, we'd calculate 35 vs 3, then round down to 3.
So you'd end up with the same number, but clearly the 1d60 is doing more.
If we did % chance to kill... 1d10 would have a 80% chance to kill a 3 hp monster. 3 would have a 100% chance to kill a 3 hp monster.
So we'd conclude that flat 3 would be superior. But since 25% of the monsters have 4 HP, and 25% have 2 (a quick bell curve), the flat 3 would only kill 75%. (1d10 would still be 80%).
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Cause overkill makes you round your damage, and will causes rounding errors.