glad to see your DPR king candidates thread is doing so well, it will be a good point to start lurking again . As you noted in your PM, i left the boards some time ago, so i cannot say much about current builds, but i like the KPT metric and the option to also include encounter powers in DPR. On with your survey:
On to the questions. 1) DPR value 1a) Do you want DPR or Normalized DPR? 1b)Do you want
"turns per kill"(I'm an N round striker) 4 baseline, 2 optimized, 1 broken, anything less than 1 is still broken
"kills per turn" (I kill N monsters each round) .25 baseline, .5 optimzed, 1+ broken
1a) DPR 1b) KPT
3) Categorization of cheese usage 3a) Should we preserve a legend? 3b) Should I use symbols(&%$@) or abberviations("Frst" for "uses frost cheese")? 3c) Should I enforce stating what cheese you use? 3d) What are some cheese elements you want? LFR(LFR legal), Frst(Frost cheese), Rev.(Revenants), CA(requires Combat advantage), Ch(needs to charge a foe every round), RM(Radiant Mafia), IRC(Item Rarity Compliant) 3e) I'm probably going to keep the seperation of level 6 chargers vs. non-chargers. Do you feel other seperations are necessary?
3a) yes 3b) I think abberviations with two or max. three letters would work best, i always had to used the legend with the symbols before. 3c) yes 3d) Most CA builds have ways to get CA most of the time, so unless the build has no convincing way to get CA, i wouldn't add an extra tag. 3e) I don't think the charger separation is really necessary, but another possible category might be BB+BR builds (if they still work, that is)
4) Do you still want a Nova section? Are there special rules you want changed from the last DPR king thread (1 AP, 1 prep round, daily section and encounter section)?
YES! :D
5) Do you want a non-item specific builds section, or is the tag of IRC(Item Rarity Compliant) sufficent?
5a) Should we have
Builds are either IRC(Item rarity compliant) or IRS(Item rarity sucks) OR
Builds can be either IRC(Item rarity compliant) or IPS(Item power spamming(Ammunition, Whetstones, Dancing weapon...)) or neither?
IRC or IRS (and i'm very much a IRS-man^^)
6) What guides/links do you want here? Just post a link.
You wouldn't be interested to take over the Complete Collection mayhaps ? Seems it wasn't kept too much since my last edit (feb 2011). ...Just kidding, i know how much work this thread alone is.
7) What format do you want the "updates " section in?
Just 4-5 lines at the top of the page with the most current additions, buildname: KPT x, DPR y, Timestamp, (comment).
8) Daily item restrictions: Do we allow daily items, and how many encounters should a build be able to sustain it to be legal?
5 encounters, build should still work without items (DPR/KPT shouldn't drop below normal builds)
9) Type 1 or Type 2? Type 1)
Encounter + At-Will section will have only 1 number. Encounter candidates will have N rounds to fight and we will take the average/median and rank them accordingly. N will bias either towards nova or towards sustained damage
Nova section where you have 1 prep round and your nova damage is based on your total damage in round 2
Type 2)
Each candidate will have 2 numbers Nova(2 round average) and sustained(end of the day DPR). the nova value will default to sustained if no nova value is provided
Type 2 imo.
Allright, i'll lurk some more, then its back to the thesis^^
Swapped the Symbol out, and used Iron Armbands for my item bonus instead (losing Executioner's Bracers). DPR didn't change much, but it's correct now.
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
@Borg: oh really? As someone interested in getting into a future of statistal analysis, would you be willing to pm me how to go about calculating that? If/when I can get access back that isn't my mobile, I might do that math for a bunch of builds just for the practice.
@Borg: oh really? As someone interested in getting into a future of statistal analysis, would you be willing to pm me how to go about calculating that? If/when I can get access back that isn't my mobile, I might do that math for a bunch of builds just for the practice.
Add 1 to my name and append @gmail.com to it. Just to warn you, I'm not the best at the stastical stuff. I love stats, don't get me wrong, and I think it should be tought instead of calc for the majority of education, but I am by no means a math king on the boards here. I have seen some very rigorous proofs.
The first thing to read up on is this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binomial_distribut... Having that in your toolbelt at the ready should serve you for years to come. The way you would apply it to a DPR build would be: p = chance of hitting and thus dealing average damage on a hit. Then from there try to determine the chance of dealing enough hits of "average damage" to a standard foe to kill him. Taking into account all your die, and crits would almost require the other standard way of doing stastics, simulation. This skill I'm good at. Your choice of excel, matlab, or java or the like will take you far. Excel (or google docs or open office spreadsheet): is good for simple calculations, but bad for statistics as you typically want 10,000 "attacks" Matlab is common for quick engineering but requires Matlab. Easy for large arrays operated on in parallel. Java is more nitty and gritty, but is widely used in other fields.
One thing that I did in the past was to simulate the sage of ages floating d20. Boy was that a pain.
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Greg: This conversation leads into the talk of balance. Is it important that classes are equally balanced? And how does that look - would that focus on damage output and number crunching?
Monte: (Joking) The assassin, the wizard, and the warlock should all just be better than everything else.
Bruce: If all classes are putting out the same damage, there's no difference. We definitely want the classes to be balanced, though having things exactly mathematically balanced isn't always the goal. Different classes or different play styles will shine at different moments, though of course we want everyone to be able to contribute in the common situations like combat.
Greg: When you're talking about non-numerical class stuff, how do you figure out balance?
Bruce: If the fighter is 100% damage for example, then maybe this other class is 80% damage/combat and 20% exploration, or some other mix of game elements. Each class has its time in the spotlight, and not all classes are built expressly for combat.
Rob: You may look at a class and see that it's damage output isn't as high as another class, for example maybe the bard doesn't do as much as raw damage as the fighter. That other class will have other options, like charm person or something that fits into that class's niche and will give that class different options, but still equally useful in combat, exploration, or roleplaying. If the Fighter's damage is the baseline, and Bard is 70%, the Bard has extra stuff (spells, etc) to give variety. We find damage equivalence between offensive and other types of spells. Charm Person roughly 10.5 points of damage.
When PHB1 comes out we should therefore be able to convert the stock bard's "extra" stuff to equivilant damage and thus KPR, setting the fighter as the baseline. We would then be able to have an index for power based on how much points you have, be it damage, control, social effectivness...
I'll then be able to host the Index King Candidates, yay.
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
Greg: This conversation leads into the talk of balance. Is it important that classes are equally balanced? And how does that look - would that focus on damage output and number crunching?
Monte: (Joking) The assassin, the wizard, and the warlock should all just be better than everything else.
Bruce: If all classes are putting out the same damage, there's no difference. We definitely want the classes to be balanced, though having things exactly mathematically balanced isn't always the goal. Different classes or different play styles will shine at different moments, though of course we want everyone to be able to contribute in the common situations like combat.
Greg: When you're talking about non-numerical class stuff, how do you figure out balance?
Bruce: If the fighter is 100% damage for example, then maybe this other class is 80% damage/combat and 20% exploration, or some other mix of game elements. Each class has its time in the spotlight, and not all classes are built expressly for combat.
Rob: You may look at a class and see that it's damage output isn't as high as another class, for example maybe the bard doesn't do as much as raw damage as the fighter. That other class will have other options, like charm person or something that fits into that class's niche and will give that class different options, but still equally useful in combat, exploration, or roleplaying. If the Fighter's damage is the baseline, and Bard is 70%, the Bard has extra stuff (spells, etc) to give variety. We find damage equivalence between offensive and other types of spells. Charm Person roughly 10.5 points of damage.
The idea is sound...
But i havn't seen much reason to trust their math... Hopefully the playtest will help put real balance into things.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
EDIT: Updated after errata to only use 3 rare items. Minor corrections to calculations. Switched some things around to remove noLFR tag, while also increasing KPR.
I'm gonna hold off a couple days before "officially" putting this on the list, but here's a new build (with a trick I haven't seen used before). Level 30 BuildShow
A Thousand Cuts Revenant (Mul), Fighter|Ranger, Mul Battle Slave, Legendary Sovereign Hybrid Talent: Arena Training (in place of Fighter Weapon Talent - DCSC 86) Arena Training: Arena Weapon (Rapier) Arena Training: Arena Weapon (Zulaat) Theme: Samurai Sword of Kings: Twofold Flinch
FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 26, Con 12, Dex 24, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 16.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 18, Con 10, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 10.
POWERS At-will: Twin Strike Reserve Maneuver: Twofold Flinch (replaces Challenge of Blades from PP) Encounter: Untamed Outburst, Nonchalant Collapse, Weaponmaster's Lure Utility: Battle Fury Stance, Incredible Toughness (via Past Soul)
ITEMS Belt of Sonnlinor Righteousness (epic tier), Sandals of Avandra, Symbol of Victory +2, Life Charm +5, Gauntlets of Destruction, Frozen Whetstone (paragon tier) (35), Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (epic tier), Vorpal Zulaat +6, Ring of Free Time, Quickhit Braces (epic tier), Ioun Stone of Might, Eager Hero's Tattoo (paragon tier), Veteran's Elderhide Armor +6, The Fading One - Lighter than Wind (heroic tier), Ring of Giants, Solitaire (Violet)
Twofold Flinch is an awesome power. It makes 2 attack rolls, and does so as a minor (!) action. Sadly, it does not deal any damage, which really limits the abusability of this otherwise-great thing.
On the other hand...Arena Battle Rhythm lets you deal damage when you make a melee attack and don't deal damage. Pretty neat, but static damage isn't really all that big a deal...
Then Rending Tempest makes it so that, if you hit, you deal extra [W]'s of damage. Now we not only are dealing damage, but there is a damage roll with it as well. Use MBS to make the power reliable, then add Sword of Kings, and now we can spam Twofold Flinch every round - with a damage roll.
There will probably be objections to this on a variety of grounds, but I will pre-empt one of them: Objection: Arena Battle Rhythm just says the target "takes damage," not necessarily that you're dealing it as part of the hit. If you're not dealing it, then you can't add Rending Tempest. Rebuttal: For starters, the rules generally treat "the target takes damage" due to your attack identically to "you deal damage to the target." But if you want to get more specific, just compare to the wording of Critical Hits on RC 217. It says that, on a crit, you do not deal damage as normal. "Instead, the target takes damage as if the maximum result had been rolled for damage." But then a moment later, it describes how extra damage (such as from a magic weapon's crit dice) will still add in, even though the wording is "the target takes damage." This is identical to what I'm doing with Arena Battle Rhythm + Rending Tempest.
Start the battle at non-positive HP, holding a Frozen Whetstone
First round: free action: Iaijutsu (shift next to isolated target, get a +2 to attack...assumes target is reachable via shift 4) RoFT minor: use Frozen Whetstone minor 1: activate Battle Fury Stance free: use OoE on target standard: Untamed Outburst minor 2: Nonchalant Collapse AP: Weaponmaster's Lure minor 3: Twofold Flinch minor 4: Twofold Flinch minor 5: Twofold Flinch
Every subsequent round: standard: Twin Strike all minors: Twofold Flinch
Shift 1 from Mobile Warrior after every single attack (gives +1 to the next attack due to The Fading One - Lighter Than Wind).
Can use an AP the first 5 enc/day due to Symbol of Victory and a violet solitaire.
I assume an isolated target for Cunning Sneak and Prime Hunter (though CS could easily be switched with Wintertouched). This isn't too crazy, because on turn 1 I can activate Sudden Strength to give a push on all attacks (and thus push the opponent away from the field). This is aided by Weaponmaster's Lure, which can reposition nicely if necessary.
Survivability is better than it looks at first, because 1) in theory, there's only 1 bad guy nearby, 2) that bad guy takes a -4 to attack me due to Twofold Flinch, and 3) I'm a revenant with the survivability tricks that come with that.
Instead of actually posting calculations, I will link to my sheet on the DPR King Candidates spreadsheet (go to View -> Hidden Sheets -> A Thousand Cuts; please re-hide afterward). I explained the tactics used above.
Simplifications used: 1) I assumed Triumphant Attack kicked in after the second attack on Weaponmaster's Lure...it's just a lot easier to actually pinpoint a time for that one, so I picked something a little pessimistic (chance of critting by that point = 65.13%). 2) I assumed that Twofold Flinch always had a damage roll from Rending Tempest (which isn't true if every attack before it missed). Very small effect on DPR. 3) I assumed that Lasting Frost is in effect forever after the first attack in the encounter.
Mean KPR: 4.866 Mean KPR post-milestone: 5.781
The "trick" part of it is the interesting aspect of the build, and I welcome any criticism about that (or any other piece of the build).
Also, since this is the first build to use the spreadsheet for damage calcs, any feedback on that is appreciated too (I don't think I'd want to put more than 1 build on a given sheet, by the way).
EDIT: Forgot to list cheese. Rev., Frst, Twin, Typed, Solo
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
I'm gonna hold off a couple days before "officially" putting this on the list, but here's a new build (with a trick I haven't seen used before). Level 30 BuildShow
Revenant (Mul), Fighter|Ranger, Mul Battle Slave, Legendary Sovereign Hybrid Talent: Arena Training Arena Training (Hybrid): Arena Weapon (Rapier) Arena Training (Hybrid): Arena Weapon (Zulaat) Theme: Samurai Sword of Kings: Twofold Flinch
FINAL ABILITY SCORES Str 26, Con 12, Dex 24, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 16.
STARTING ABILITY SCORES Str 18, Con 10, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 10.
POWERS At-will: Twin Strike Reserve Maneuver: Twofold Flinch (replaces Challenge of Blades from PP) Encounter: Untamed Outburst, Nonchalant Collapse, Weaponmaster's Lure Utility: Battle Fury Stance, Incredible Toughness (via Past Soul)
ITEMS Belt of Sonnlinor Righteousness (epic tier), Sandals of Avandra (epic tier), Symbol of Victory +2 (2), Life Charm +5, Gauntlets of Destruction (paragon tier), Frozen Whetstone (paragon tier) (35), Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (epic tier), Vorpal Zulaat +6, Ring of Free Time (epic tier) (2), Quickhit Braces (epic tier), Ioun Stone of Might, Eager Hero's Tattoo (paragon tier), Veteran's Elderhide Armor +6, The Fading One - Lighter than Wind (heroic tier)
Twofold Flinch is an awesome power. It makes 2 attack rolls, and does so as a minor (!) action. Sadly, it does not deal any damage, which really limits the abusability of this otherwise-great thing.
On the other hand...Arena Battle Rhythm lets you deal damage when you make a melee attack and don't deal damage. Pretty neat, but static damage isn't really all that big a deal...
Then Rending Tempest makes it so that, if you hit, you deal extra [W]'s of damage. Now we not only are dealing damage, but there is a damage roll with it as well. Use MBS to make the power reliable, then add Sword of Kings, and now we can spam Twofold Flinch every round - with a damage roll.
There will probably be objections to this on a variety of grounds, but I will pre-empt one of them: Objection: Arena Battle Rhythm just says the target "takes damage," not necessarily that you're dealing it as part of the hit. If you're not dealing it, then you can't add Rending Tempest. Rebuttal: For starters, the rules generally treat "the target takes damage" due to your attack identically to "you deal damage to the target." But if you want to get more specific, just compare to the wording of Critical Hits on RC 217. It says that, on a crit, you do not deal damage as normal. "Instead, the target takes damage as if the maximum result had been rolled for damage." But then a moment later, it describes how extra damage (such as from a magic weapon's crit dice) will still add in, even though the wording is "the target takes damage." This is identical to what I'm doing with Arena Battle Rhythm + Rending Tempest.
Just add one more thing to the list of reasons Arena Training is broken.
Start the battle at non-positive HP, holding a Frozen Whetstone
First round: free action: Iaijutsu (shift next to isolated target, get a +2 to attack...assumes target is reachable via shift 4) RoFT minor: use Frozen Whetstone RoFT minor: activate Battle Fury Stance minor 1: use OoE on target AP: Untamed Outburst minor 2: Nonchalant Collapse standard: Weaponmaster's Lure minor 3: Twofold Flinch minor 4: Twofold Flinch minor 5: Twofold Flinch
Every subsequent round: standard: Twin Strike all minors: Twofold Flinch
Shift 1 from Mobile Warrior after every single attack (gives +1 to the next attack due to The Fading One - Lighter Than Wind).
I assume an isolated target for Cunning Sneak and Prime Hunter (though CS could easily be switched with Wintertouched). This isn't too crazy, because on turn 1 I can activate Sudden Strength to give a push on all attacks (and thus push the opponent away from the field). This is aided by Weaponmaster's Lure, which can reposition nicely if necessary.
Survivability is better than it looks at first, because 1) in theory, there's only 1 bad guy nearby, 2) that bad guy takes a -4 to attack me due to Twofold Flinch, and 3) I'm a revenant with the survivability tricks that come with that.
Instead of actually posting calculations, I will link to my sheet on the DPR King Candidates spreadsheet. I explained the tactics used above.
Simplifications used: 1) I assumed Triumphant Attack kicked in after the second attack on Weaponmaster's Lure...it's just a lot easier to actually pinpoint a time for that one, so I picked something a little pessimistic (chance of critting by that point = 65.13%). 2) I assumed that Twofold Flinch always had a damage roll from Rending Tempest (which isn't true if every attack before it missed). Very small effect on DPR. 3) I assumed that Lasting Frost is in effect forever after the first attack in the encounter.
Mean KPR: 4.912 Mean KPR post-milestone: 6.831
The "trick" part of it is the interesting aspect of the build, and I welcome any criticism about that (or any other piece of the build).
Also, since this is the first build to use the spreadsheet for damage calcs, any feedback on that is appreciated too (I don't think I'd want to put more than 1 build on a given sheet, by the way).
EDIT: Forgot to list cheese. Rev., Frst, noLFR, Twin, Solo, IRC, Typed
Do any of those encompass each other? IRC is what's causing noLFR for me, and Typed and Frst are pretty closely related.
Waaaait, what? Hybrid Arena Fighters are sort of not a thing that exists. Unlike with other Hybrids (like Monks), which directly grant you the ability to select a class feature, Hybrid Fighters are forced to choose their Weapon Talent from a list of semi-nerfed class features. This list has still not been updated to include Arena Fighting, so it's still not an option.
The other major deal is that you can't deal extra damage with a power that deals no damage to begin with (Rules Compendium 223). So I hate to break it to you, but you're just dealing your Dex mod twice with each of these attacks.
Rending Tempest adds to the damage done by the power. The power did no damage if Arena Rhythm activates, so you cannot add Rending Tempest. One automatically precludes the other.
By RAW you cannot take Arena Fighter as a hybrid.
You can't have two Rings of Free Time in LFR either, so that is another thing.
It's totally possible to redo it as a single class Fighter, MC Ranger...but I was under the impression that since "you can select the Arena Training class feature in place of the Fighter Weapon Talent class feature" (DSCS 86), and Hybrid Fighters can get the Fighter Weapon Talent class feature (PHB3 144 - notice that it is not a (Hybrid) version, you can actually pick the original FWT feature), then combining these two lets you get Arena Training.
This isn't meant to be an LFR build, so that part's okay (I also use 2 symbols of victory, and I don't really know the LFR rules well enough to say if I'm violating anything else...are Legendary Boons allowed there? and rare items?).
In terms of Arena Battle Rhythm + Rending Tempest... I'm not sure what the problem is? Yes, the power did no damage - until ABR kicked in, now suddenly damage was dealt. Extra damage can kick in as long as there is damage; ABR gives you damage.
EDIT: Not sure if this makes any difference to your view of it, but just to clarify: both ABR and RT apply to "attacks," not powers.
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
. As you noted in your PM, i left the boards some time ago, so i cannot say much about current builds, but i like the KPT metric and the option to also include encounter powers in DPR. On with your survey: 
