I'd like to ask a favor of a few Char Opers. I've updated all the old candidates, having converted their DPR to KPNR, with links and authors. The thing I haven't updated are the cheese usages. That's a pretty big task. Seeing that I've lost the original glossary. If you can remember what some of the numbers/symbols meant please post them here so we can do a reverse lookup and retag the candidates with the updated glossary.
If you want to have certian cheese elements listed, now is the time to have them.
If you own one of the builds and would like to outline your first 2 rounds, 5 rounds, and your final 10th round (should be just at-will DPR) please update it or else it will simply remain as though you used your at-will every round.
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I played around in the spreadsheet just a tiny bit, and I'm not sure if it's as good in practice as it seems in theory.
There's of course the obvious issue that someone could deliberately vandalize it...but let's just assume that everyone will always behave correctly (even though this is editable without even the accountability of knowing who edited).
If I go in and, say, sort a list by type of cheese, that sorting is saved, and will be what everyone else who looks at it sees. And if someone wants to just play around with some numbers...it's a bit weird having those changes saved to everyone (and bad if you accidentally changed something you weren't supposed to). And if I'm sorting by one thing, and someone else wants to see it differently at the same time: we have a problem.
I haven't played around with Google Docs too much to know what it can do, but what we really need is something more along the lines of a repository, where there's a master copy and people can play around with that, but nothing is ever saved unless you specifically want it to. Not sure of the best way to do this...maybe have to make the doc itself uneditable and then people submit their builds for you to add (not ideal, I know).
EDIT: I looked into this more. Here's what I recommend: every page is private, but published to the web. The main DPR pages are re-published automatically when changes are made; sub-pages (for an individual build-maker) are only published when they say to.
You have to personally copy a build's data into the list (and also manually add people's sheets when they first want to set one up)...but that's probably good, because I think it's better that new builds need a couple days of community review before being "officially" added.
One benefit of publishing vs. actually making the doc public is that a public doc can only have up to 50 simultaneous viewers (and if people are doing their build calcs there, that could come up as an issue). On the other hand, a published doc doesn't show the formulas involved, which is an issue for the calculation sheets... hmph.
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
You have to personally copy a build's data into the list (and also manually add people's sheets when they first want to set one up)...but that's probably good, because I think it's better that new builds need a couple days of community review before being "officially" added.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
There's of course the obvious issue that someone could deliberately vandalize it...but let's just assume that everyone will always behave correctly (even though this is editable without even the accountability of knowing who edited).
This is less of an issue than it'd seem initially. There's a revision history, change by change (and by user). So if a vandal came in and replaced all the DPR goodness with gibberish, you'd need only pop into the revisions and roll back to the version right before the vandalism. Easy peasy.
You're right on the sorting, though, and I don't know of any way around that other than the fact that people are free to download a snapshot of the sheet into their own doc or excel and play with it as much as they want on their own.
Ideally, you'd have an embeddable (integrated into the forum post), independently sortable (not affecting other people's views), automatically updated/published view of the current spreadsheet. The forum's disabling of iFrames kills the easy answer to at least part of that, but I haven't given up entirely.
Is there any chance that we can request from the Powers That Be that iFrames be allowed? Not sure who to ask, but it'd make things a lot easier for embedding the sheets. Though I guess it's not THAT much of a pain to have to click through to a link.
I'd like to get some discussion going on how we should deal with riposte builds. Because we only have room for 1 value and not "Choice A KPR, Choice B KPR" we will either have to
force them to have 2 entries, which will get seperated in sorting, or
have them tagged as quoting a value assumming a monster attacks them even if it's not the smartest thing to do, or
state a rule that when a choice is presented to a monster he will choose the option that leads to him taking the least damage (provoke OA by charging someone else or take the riposte in the face)
Thoughts?
Also, you monk builds need to calculate how many monsters' total HP you can churn through in 2 rounds, 5 rounds and 10 rounds. No longer will we support you having to quote 2 DPRs (primary and secondary) but they are now added together because the ranking value is Number of Monsers you've killed in 5 rounds.
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
DPR = Damage Per round ~= Chance to hit * damage on a hit KPR = Kills Per Round. 1 Kill = 8*Level+24 damage = DPR/(8*level+24) KPNR = Kills Per N Rounds. How many standards can you kill in N rounds?
I'd vote 3. We're fighting blocks of tofu, not angsty teenagers. So assume minimal survival instincts.
Only issue is stealth builds. Can you assume a monster would provoke an OA? In my experience, i get it about 2/3 of the time, with about 1/2 the time an enemy not needing to provoke to attack with an ally in melee range, or just a burst, and occasionally i get a 3-4 attacks per round.
I'm tempted to say you want to add OMGWTFBBQ: +6 KP5R No one want's to play with you anymore: +7 KP5R
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Being the riposter, I agree on posting a single value of the least damaging option. I like to include the other option just as a reference, but you can't assume it as you mimimal baseline. Only other fair option I can think of is giving some kind of weighted average, but I don't think I'm even comfortable with that.
That said, you might want to reconsider you monk rule unless we can come to an agreement on aoe/overkill/whole kills. Bloodying 3 enemies a turn is vastly different than killing one and bloodying a second. I'm not saying one or the other is necessarily better, but calculating them the same is misleading and potentially overstates the value of aoe and dispersed damage.
Totally missed the two different links, very nice.
I found a way to sort in the "builder" sheet without affecting everyone: switch to List View (View -> List) and then look at it that way. I don't have the time to look into it now, but if there were some way to make this view the default, that'd help a lot.
I am okay with you saying my argument is stupid, or commits the munchkin fallacy, or any other bad thing you want. Particularly if you give a reason/explanation for it.
However, I will ignore any post that calls me stupid, or a munchkin, or what have you. Not because it bothers me; I've just found that people only start name-calling when that's the best argument they have left.
