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Jan 25, 2012 -- 8:51AM, borg285 wrote:

0.38 Mean KPR Wil (Revenant Avenger/Pitfighter/Eternal Seeker) , kilpatds (1/2Elf Twin Rev.)

This version of Wil needs to be yanked: the ancient ancient Pitfighter nerf.

I cannot seem to get the option to select Dual Weapon Attack with my Paragon Multiclassing in the Builder, has this been changed?

Changed? No. Never thought of by the coders? Yes.

Hmmmm what am I missing in the builder thats not allowing me to choose the Dual Weapon Attack?

Nothing, its just not supported in CB. Its rules legal based on the wording but it wasn't coded that way.

To be fair, the CB, is working as intended, and "bug" is in the book.

That said, exploting bugs is 1/2 of what we do here. 

May 2, 2012 -- 9:19AM, diamondjimdavis wrote:

Hmmmm what am I missing in the builder thats not allowing me to choose the Dual Weapon Attack?

You're missing that the character builder is not a rules source. It's coded not by what's formally legal, but by "eh, that's about what they said" that's easiest to code. There's lots of stuff the CB lets you do or seems to let you do that's illegal, and there's lots of stuff that's legal but the CB won't permit because it's an oddly worded rule and the coder didn't think to make an exception for it.

There's also the aspect that the Character Builder guys can (and probably do) ask the developers what they meant, and can code that... as opposed to what the said.  In this case, I don't know anyone who thinks that taking Dual Weapon Attack is intended, even if several will argue that it's not overpowered.

I started to do the math, and just got too depressed to continue.  Could someone with a bit of time on their hands just put together a vanilla BB/BR morninglord/radiant one (firewind blade) spammer?  I crossed 1KPR before I even got to the "/BR" part, or actually doing any tweaking, or even deciding on the race.

And then, for humor, do it as a werebear (dead genasai) with claw gloves, using the "BB w/ claw gloves has a damage roll" ruling, just to see idiotic numbers. 

I'll put together the idiotic one I don't think dead genasi is the way to go though; getting Shocking Flame requires 4 feats from the interpretation I've seen (Extra Manifestation x2, Double Manifestation, Shocking Flame) for +8 damage. Tiefling only requires 2 feats (Hellfire Blood, Psychic Corruption of Malbolge) for +1 attack and +6 damage, and it's less questionably legal. Might even use Secrets of Belial for Battle Fury Stance.

My guess is that it simply reaches horribly broken faster?

May 2, 2012 -- 11:47AM, ThatWasTotallyNinja wrote:

I'll put together the idiotic one I don't think dead genasi is the way to go though; getting Shocking Flame requires 4 feats from the interpretation I've seen (Extra Manifestation x2, Double Manifestation, Shocking Flame) for +8 damage. Tiefling only requires 2 feats (Hellfire Blood, Psychic Corruption of Malbolge) for +1 attack and +6 damage, and it's less questionably legal. Might even use Secrets of Belial for Battle Fury Stance.

Genasi + shockig flame + crown of brilliance are wanted for the radiant part.  Not the shocking flame part.

Revenent for the extra minors.

I thought radiant one did the radiant part?

May 2, 2012 -- 12:00PM, HawaiianMercenary wrote:

I thought radiant one did the radiant part?

Well never mind then...

Unless there was another reason to be genasi....  Still worth being a revenant for the extra minors.

INT/Con race?

Oh, definitely still revenant, I just meant dead tiefling > dead genasi.

Revenant for the cheesy extra actions?

May 2, 2012 -- 12:21PM, HawaiianMercenary wrote:

Revenant for the cheesy extra actions?

Yup.

Though still less cheesy then claw gloves adding a damage roll.

Yeah, adding a damage roll just seems...unneeded. Can't you already 1 shot an elite no problem? Maybe even a solo?

But given the choice between adding a roll to static powers and getting 3 extra actions per turn, I would leap on option #2.

Not to start anything, but revenant extra actions are /way/ more cheesy than adding a damage roll, both in end result and rule stretching.

To be perfectly fair, neither are really RAI, but revenant extra actions can have a valid interpretaion that shuts the whole thing down. Damage rolls do not have an alternate meaning (despite how vehemently certain parties wish).

And if someone compared the final results of either build (a BM abusing BR, one with claw gloves, the other a revenant with extra actions), I can almost guarentee the sheer volume of extra attacks would drown out the damage roll benefit (and not to mention the revenant having the bonus of being unkillable).

I dont believe that is correct. Extra actions aren't false by raw. Adding a damage roll is.

1) The extra actions only exist because revenant's racial feature got updated but none of the feats did, creating a loophole that didn't exist.
2) It all only works due to the free save from superior will. But there is a valid position that says if you take that save and are no longer dazed, then you instantly fall unconscious (the feature is worded in a way to setup a strict either or).
3) Please read the rules on damage rolls, extra damage, etc. I won't get into that argument, its terrible. If anyone else brings it up, do not confuse my lack of a reply as a concession. If/when anyone ever makes a new argument or has a valid point, I will reply (and concede if accurate). But that is unlikely, and every argument that has involves "inherent properties" is flatly imaginary and wrong.

Sure: dead tiefling.  Whatever.  I stopped counting, as I said earlier, when I had gotten to expected ~1.3 KPR before considering that I had a race, and before getting to brilliant recovery's portion of the attack sequence.  And before spending more than about 1/4 of my feats.

I suspect a desert wind monk can compete at lv1 so lets see what I get

Lvl 1 Kenku Monk 18 Dex 18 Cha
Theme- Infernal Prince, Feats- Superior Implement Training (Incendiary Dagger),
Items- Incendiary Dagger

Blistering Flourish
+9 Attack (4 Dex, 1 superior implement, 1 background, 3 CA) vs reflex 85% Accuracy
d8+6(4 Dex, 2  superior implement)+10(2, 4Cha, 4Cha) 17-24 (20.5)

If you hit with Blistering Flourish last turn it does 4 more damage

d8+10(4 Dex, 2  superior implement, 4 Cha)+10(2, 4 Cha, 4 Cha)21-28 (24.5)

with flanking
.8*20.5 + 0.05*24=16.4+1.2=17.6dpr 0.533333kpr

with Blistering Flourish last turn
.8*24.5 + 0.05*28=19.6+1.4=21dpr 0.63636364kpr

with a non kenku race
.75*20.5 + 0.05*24=15.375+1.2=16.575dpr 0.502273kpr
.75*24.5 + 0.05*28=18.375+1.4=19.775dpr 0.599242kpr

without CA
.65*20.5 + 0.05*24=13.325+1.2=14.525dpr 0.440156kpr
.65*24.5 + 0.05*28=15.925+1.4=17.325dpr 0.525kpr

21dpr .64kpr

did I do anything wrong?
not bad considering it's mostly human Rogues above it. The damage is also fairly stable, with the only roll being a d8 so that's probably worth somthing.
To be LFR legal you'd proably go with a dead tiefling, unseelie agent background, and hellfire blood. Trading +3 attack with ca, +2 damage for +2 attack and +2 damage.

RE: Character Builder
I still use the old one.  I use the houserule options, the little house looking symbol, to get the proper attacks.  I selected my level 1 At-Will power (type utility), clicked the house icon, then was able to select the Ranger at-will power Dual Weapon Attack (type attack).  I was also able to achieve the same thing with the extra At-Will power a Human gets. 

Paragon Multiclassing says "At Level 11, you can choose to replace one of your at-will powers with an at-will power from your second class"

PMC is in the retraining tab.  I think that the newer classes are lacking some keywords that PMC is programmed to look for.  I would put this problem as the coding not keeping up with the rules.  There is only so much a programming staff can do.  With as many new classes, rules, changes happening in D&D, it can be pretty difficult to keep up.

I've removed content from this thread because Baiting, Personal Attacks and Thread Disruption are violations of the Code of Conduct.  You can review the Code of Conduct here.  

ORC_Chaos 

May 2, 2012 -- 1:16PM, kilpatds wrote:

Sure: dead tiefling.  Whatever.  I stopped counting, as I said earlier, when I had gotten to expected ~1.3 KPR before considering that I had a race, and before getting to brilliant recovery's portion of the attack sequence.  And before spending more than about 1/4 of my feats.

Okay, I lost interest about halfway through doing the math, so it's not very exact. But here's the build I used:
L30 Build Show

Round 1 starts by applying a whetstone, then using Battle Fury Stance, Bear Shape, OoE (free action), and spending an AP (solitaire + symbol to have one every encounter). Each round I try to force misses on BB #4 (if I haven't missed yet) by making an improvised kick attack instead of using the fullblade on that particular one.

I'm getting +81.5 damage from non-bonus sources (vulnerabilities, extra damage, Firewind Blade, etc). +42 damage in the form of bonuses to rolls (note that these would apply to the 5 BR attacks no matter what).

I approximated, so I will only vouch for these being close, but I'm getting about 3.06 at-will KPR with damage roll bonuses, and 2.69 without them. Not a huge difference.

Those numbers are unweighted, I got lazy before getting to a round-by-round breakdown.

EDIT: I forgot to add Pelor's Blessing damage to the Firewind Blade damage. Updated numbers: 3.25 with bonuses, 2.88 without bonuses, and 2.01 with bonuses but without extra actions.

Even if an estimation, I'm glad to see the supporting math regarding added damage rolls and their failure to break the game. The real villian of DnD is multi-attacks (and in particular, BB).

And just to settle something: KPR with roll bonuses but without the extra revenant actions is 1.90. 

L30 Build Show

Powers were auto-chosen so this can be improved on a lot, so feel free. This was just to show the at-will DPR.

Action order = Frozen Whestone, Assassin's Shroud(x2 from Killer's Insight, Inexorable lets them stay), Move, Brutal Barrage Augment 1

Perfect Slayer feature lets you keep shrouds when you invoke them, so you get them for each BB.

DPR = 274

4 attacks:
+39 vs AC, 28 + 2d8 + 29 damage
+39 vs AC, 38 + 2d8 + 29 damage
+39 vs AC, 38 + 2d8 + 29 damage
+39 vs AC, 38 + 2d8 + 29 damage

Attack:

9(Con mod base) + 1(LWR) + 3 (Prof) + 6 (Ehn) + 3 (Exp) + 15 (Half) = 37, Combat Advantage adds two and you will have it because of Perfect Slayer.

Damage:

28/38 = BB base = 9(Con mod base) + 9(Con mod LWR) + 6(Frozen Whetstone) + 4(Shocking Flame), then adds 5(Lasting Frost) + 5(Headsman's Chop)
2d8 + 29 = Assassin's Shroud = 2d8 (Lethal Shroud, 2 shrouds) + 20(Lethal Shroud, 2 shrouds) + 9(LWR)

It gets LWR's bonus because it is its own damage roll that does not benefit from bonuses to damage rolls. Since LWR gives a bonus to damage (not damage rolls), it applies. If not, the build's DPR drops to 245.2.
Add in Promise of Storm and 4 Shrouds from the Perfect Slayer's utility, it goes to:

+39 vs AC, 28 + 7d8 + 49
+39 vs AC, 38 + 7d8 + 49
+39 vs AC, 38 + 7d8 + 49
+39 vs AC, 38 + 7d8 + 49

For a total average damage of 443

I don't consider this to be AWDPR, though, because if you kill your target, you can only save 2 of your shrouds via Inexorable Shroud. That's why I calculated the 274 using 2 shrouds.


Note: The 274 and 443 include 1d8 + 19 and 3d8 + 39 on a miss respectively, as well as crits. The math I posted does not. I'm using a DPR calculator and will write out more complete math later on, as well as possibly improving the build to include other encounters (like Sohei Flurry).

A lot of these brutal barrage builds make me wonder... I mean, they go up to a target, and kill one target. Done. Does it matter if it's a minion, standard, elite, or solo? Not really - maybe if it's a solo. But someone who can kill more than one target actually has some advantages there.

May 3, 2012 -- 1:38AM, ThatWasTotallyNinja wrote:

May 2, 2012 -- 1:16PM, kilpatds wrote:

Sure: dead tiefling.  Whatever.  I stopped counting, as I said earlier, when I had gotten to expected ~1.3 KPR before considering that I had a race, and before getting to brilliant recovery's portion of the attack sequence.  And before spending more than about 1/4 of my feats.

Okay, I lost interest about halfway through doing the math, so it's not very exact. But here's the build I used:
L30 Build Show

Revenant (Tiefling) Battlemind/Morninglord/Radiant One
Psionic Study: Speed of Thought
Theme: Werebear

STR 13 -> 15
CON 16 -> 26
DEX 8 -> 12
INT 14 -> 22
WIS 13 -> 15
CHA 12 -> 14

POWERS
Brutal Barrage
Brilliant Recovery
Battle Fury Stance (via Secrets of Belial)

FEATS
Level 1: Disciple of Divine Wrath
Level 2: Psychic Corruption of Malbolge
Level 4: Hellfire Blood
Level 6: Mighty Crusader Expertise
Level 8: Wintertouched
Level 10: Weapon Proficiency (Fullblade)
Level 11: Lasting Frost
Level 12: Fiery Blood
Level 14: Headsman's Chop
Level 16: Death's Quickening
Level 18: Critical Targeting
Level 20: Secrets of Belial
Level 21: Power Attack
Level 22: Ghostly Vitality
Level 24: Superior Reflexes
Level 26: Triumphant Attack
Level 28: Vengeful Declaration
Level 30: Superior Will

ITEMS
Claw Gloves (heroic tier), Firewind Blade Fullblade +6, Pelor's Sun Blessing (level 3), Belt of Sonnlinor Righteousness (epic tier), Iron Armbands of Power (epic tier), Khyber Shard of the Fiery Depth (epic tier), Veteran's Elderscale Armor +6, Ring of Giants (paragon tier), Life Charm +5, Ring of the Radiant Storm (paragon tier), Crown of the Brilliant Sun (paragon tier), Spark Slippers (paragon tier), Solitaire (Violet) (epic tier), Symbol of Victory +2, Frozen Whetstone (paragon tier) (35)

Round 1 starts by applying a whetstone, then using Battle Fury Stance, Bear Shape, OoE (free action), and spending an AP (solitaire + symbol to have one every encounter). Each round I try to force misses on BB #4 (if I haven't missed yet) by making an improvised kick attack instead of using the fullblade on that particular one.

I'm getting +81.5 damage from non-bonus sources (vulnerabilities, extra damage, Firewind Blade, etc). +42 damage in the form of bonuses to rolls (note that these would apply to the 5 BR attacks no matter what).

I approximated, so I will only vouch for these being close, but I'm getting about 3.06 at-will KPR with damage roll bonuses, and 2.69 without them. Not a huge difference.

Those numbers are unweighted, I got lazy before getting to a round-by-round breakdown.

EDIT: I forgot to add Pelor's Blessing damage to the Firewind Blade damage. Updated numbers: 3.25 with bonuses, 2.88 without bonuses, and 2.01 with bonuses but without extra actions.

Just want to make sure that you aren't using pre-nerfed spark slippers.  You are only using them to  get more of the queen's set, thus to get more damage.

Yes, that is correct. No point in those except the +1 damage.

Updated.
Added new Cheese key element:

IDR: Injected Damage Roll.  

There's quite a bit cheese that can be had with this.  Remember that this is not a statement that this could be considered illegal, but that this is a point that many DMs may reject as legal at their table.

 

I present Wil - Dex Slayer - Thoughts, advice?

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Wil, level 16
Half-Elf, Fighter (Slayer), Crimson Hunter
Slayer Weapon Specialization Option: Sweeping Sword
Half-Elf Power Selection Option: Dilettante
Auspicious Birth (Auspicious Birth Benefit)
Theme: Primal Guardian

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 16, CON 13, DEX 22, INT 11, WIS 17, CHA 9

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 13, CON 10, DEX 18, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 8


AC: 31 Fort: 27 Ref: 27 Will: 24
HP: 127 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 31

TRAINED SKILLS
Athletics +15, Endurance +13, Heal +16, Nature +16

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +13, Arcana +8, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +11, History +8, Insight +13, Intimidate +7, Perception +11, Religion +8, Stealth +13, Streetwise +7, Thievery +13

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Primal Guardian Feature: Mark of Thunder
Multiple Class Attack: Power Strike
Fighter Utility: Unfettered Fury
Fighter Utility: Duelist's Assault
Fighter Utility: Mobile Blade
Ranger Attack: Rapid Shot
Seeker Feature: Inevitable Shot
Seeker Attack 1: Guardian Harrier
Primal Guardian Utility 2: Sandstep
Endurance Utility 6: Third Wind
Fighter Utility 10: Clearheaded
Crimson Hunter Attack 11: Ravaging Shot
Crimson Hunter Utility 12: Hunter's Mobility
Fighter Utility 16: Relentless Advance

FEATS
Level 1: Archery Mastery
Level 2: Light Blade Expertise
Level 4: Hidden Sniper
Level 8: Primal Sharpshooter
Level 10: Nimble Blade
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 12: Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 12: Icy Heart
Level 14: Deft Blade
Level 16: Primal Eye

ITEMS
Bracers of the Perfect Shot (paragon tier) x1
Eagle Eye Goggles (paragon tier) x1
Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (paragon tier)
Amulet of Protection +3 x1
Frozen Whetstone (paragon tier) x6
Earthhide Armor of Dark Deeds +3 x1
Boots of the Fencing Master
Vicious Dagger +4 x1
Shielding Blade Longsword +1 x1
Gloves of Ice (paragon tier) x1
====== End ======

Using lasting frost/armor of dark deeds/hidden sniper for perma CA and concealment. Start with sandstep to give you the concealment you need to start the ball rolling.  I do not use frost cheese, since I don't think vulnerability imposed on first hit is reliable for DPR due to two or three hit kills.
Defenses are effectively +2 with perma conceal, and AC is an additional +1 any round I shift.

Rapid Strike, RBA Vicious Dagger:
Attack: 
+8 - half level
+6 - Dex
+3 - Prof 
+4 - Enhancement
+2 - Expertise
+2 - CA
+1 - Nimble Blade
+1 - Crimson Hunter
+2 - Eagle Eye Goggles 
-2 - Rapid Shot

+27 vs Reflex (Deft Blade), Crit on 19-20

Damage Per attack:
+2.5 - Average dagger damage
+4 - Enhancement
+2 - Light blade Expertise
+6 - Dex (ranged attack)
+11 - Dex +5 (slayer) 
+6 - Dex - Primal Eye
+4 - Whetstone
+3 - Icy Heart
+2 - Gloves of Ice
+4 - Bracer of Perfect Shot
+3 - Dragon Shard
+1 - Two Weapon Fighting
+3 - Battle Wrath

51.5

Crit Damage:
51.5 + 1.5 (brings  1d4 to max) + 26 (average on 4d12) = 79

Average DPR per attack = (.85*51.5) + (.10*79) = 51.675


DPR: 51.675*2.178=112.548 DPR

0.564723106 KPR @ lvl 30, itemless (i.e. inherited bonuses)

Jun 1, 2012 -- 7:23AM, Ris71 wrote:

I present Wil - Dex Slayer - Thoughts, advice?

DPR: 51.675*2.178=112.548 DPR

.74 KPR is really good, let alone for a ranged character with a pointy dagger.

Not to steal 'thunder' from Ris71's excellent build... (Rapid Shot is a personal favorite of mine, too)


Presenting THOR !/!?!?!!  ---   (a sketch from his past, romping through Jotunheimr...)

(And in epic, he gets the one and only Hammer of Thunderbolts artifact AKA 'Mjolnir', but I digress)

Any suggestions?

====== Created by Me ======
Thor, level 12
Half-Elf, Ranger|Warden, First Hunter
Hybrid Warden Option: Hybrid Warden Will
Hybrid Ranger Option: Hybrid Ranger Reflex
Background: TBD
Theme: Feybeast Trainer    ---   Thor travels around with lots of pets
Feybeast Trainer Pet: Young Owlbear
Hybrid Talent Option: Warden's Armored Might
Guardian Might Option: Earthstrength ???
Half-Elf Power Selection Option: Dilettante

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 22, DEX 09, INT 11, WIS 14, CHA 11

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 15, CON 17, DEX 08, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 10


AC: 28 Fort: 24 Ref: 21 Will: 21
HP: 102 Surges: 13 Surge Value: 25

TRAINED SKILLS
TBD

UNTRAINED SKILLS
TBD

POWERS
Dilettante: Grappling Spirits (may use as RBA)
Ranger Attack: Rapid Shot (through Archery Mastery)
Warden at-will 1: Weight of Earth
Hybrid encounter 1: TBD
Hybrid daily 1: Form of TBD
Ranger utility 2: Invigorating Stride
Hybrid encounter 3: TBD
Ranger daily 5: Spitting Cobra Stance
Hybrid utility 6: TBD
Hybrid encounter 7: TBD
Hybrid daily 9: TBD
Hybrid utility 10: TBD
First Hunter Attack 11: First Hunter's Spear
First Hunter Utility 12: Marked Prey

FEATS
Level 1: Hybrid Talent
Level 2: Bludgeon Expertise
Level 4: Archery Mastery
Level 6: Adept Dilettante
Level 8: Crippling Crush
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 11: Primal Eye
Level 12: Icy Heart

ITEMS
Bracers of the Perfect Shot (heroic tier) x1
Eagle Eye Goggles (paragon tier) x1
Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (paragon tier)
Amulet of Protection +2 x1
Frozen Whetstone (heroic tier) x18
Magic Hide Armor +1 x1
Magic Warhammer +3 x1
Gloves of Ice (paragon tier) x1
Heavy Shield x1
====== End ======

Set up is to move young owlbear next to group of enemies to provide combat advantage.  Then bombard with Rapid Shot Grappling Spirits RBA's with the thrown magic warhammer (able to throw with First Hunter feature).  Any enemy hit gets slowed by the RBA's triggering Crippling Crush bonus.  Adept Dilettante lets Thor use his Constitution modifier to determine bonuses to attack and damage rolls.  Invigorating Stride can heal owlbear and Thor via Second Wind in a pinch as a shift 2 encounter move action.

Rapid Shot, RBA Magic Warhammer:
Attack: 
+6 - half level
+6 - Con (Adept Dilettante Grappling Spirits)
+2 - Prof 
+3 - Enhancement
+2 - Expertise
+2 - CA
+2 - First Hunter
+2 - Eagle Eye Goggles 
-2 - Rapid Shot

+23 vs AC

Damage Per attack:
+5.5 - Average warhammer damage
+3 - Enhancement
+6 - Con - Adept Dilettante (Grappling Spirits)
+6 - Con - Crippling Crush (Grappling Spirits)
+4 - Str - Primal Eye
+6 - Con - First Hunter RBA
+2 - Whetstone
+3 - Icy Heart
+2 - Gloves of Ice
+2 - Bracer of Perfect Shot
+3 - Dragon Shard
+2 - Owlbear Aura

44.5

Crit Damage:
44.5 + 4.5 (max weapon die) + 10.5 (average of 3d6) = 59.5

Average DPR per attack = (.85*44.5) + (.05*59.5) = 40.8


DPR: 40.8*2.178 = 88.862 DPR
KPR: 88.862/120 = .74

Spoiler: Show

Adept Dilettante has no interaction with Primal Eye. It only changes the basie ability scores used by the power itself. Primal Eye still requires STR or DEX, so your damage bonus is significantly off.

Jun 3, 2012 -- 9:45PM, Jay_Ibero_911 wrote:

Adept Dilettante has no interaction with Primal Eye. It only changes the basie ability scores used by the power itself. Primal Eye still requires STR or DEX, so your damage bonus is significantly off.

I recall seeing a Brutal Scoundrel Rogue who swapped the Str bonus to Sneak attack for Dexterity bonus using Precision Throw.. is this different?

Adept Dilettante only replaces the ability scores listed in the power block itself. Precision Throw allows for a different interpretation because it doesn't actually reference the power itself.

Looks like I need to recrunch numbers.  And it only specifies attack rolls and damage rolls, so the Strength mod bonus in Guardian Harrier for instance would remain unchanged, too.


EDIT: Updated 'Thor' with Str bonus for Primal Eye.

Spoiler: Show
and here is my attack breack down Spoiler: Show
if I did my math right I should end up with 96.375 dpr (that includes critical damage) or .81 kpr.
I now this build is very cheesy but I hope I didn't get to much wrong.

Jun 9, 2012 -- 10:04PM, Odyssyus wrote:

I'm a bit new to dpr kings so please forgive for any mistakes. here is my character build it is a charge build

Spoiler: Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Victor, level 12
Warforged, Rogue (Thief), Warforged Juggernaut
Proficiency: Weapon Proficiency (Rapier)
Associate: Trained Young Owlbear
Dark Sun
Gritty Sergeant (Gritty Sergeant Benefit)
Theme: Fey Beast Tamer

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 22, CON 14, DEX 18, INT 11, WIS 11, CHA 11

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 17, CON 11, DEX 15, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 10


AC: 22 Fort: 22 Ref: 22 Will: 17
HP: 81 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 20

TRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +15, Athletics +17, Insight +11, Intimidate +13, Perception +11, Stealth +15, Thievery +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +6, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Dungeoneering +6, Endurance +10, Heal +6, History +6, Nature +6, Religion +6, Streetwise +6

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Warforged Racial Power: Warforged Resolve
Rogue Utility: Backstab
Rogue Utility: Unbalancing Trick
Rogue Utility: Acrobat's Trick
Rogue Utility: Escape Artist's Trick
Rogue Utility: Cunning Escape
Rogue Utility: Thug's Trick
Wild Talent Cantrip: Telekinetic Grasp
Rogue Utility 2: Sneak in the Attack
Rogue Utility 6: Hidden Blade
Rogue Utility 10: Nimble Fingers
Warforged Juggernaut Attack 11: Ruinous Onslaught
Warforged Juggernaut Utility 12: Inexorable Momentum

FEATS
Level 1: Light Blade Expertise
Level 2: Silvery Glow
Level 4: Power Attack
Level 6: Backstabber
Level 8: Surprising Charge
Level 10: Nimble Blade
Level 11: Warforged Tactics
Level 12: Lasting Frost

ITEMS
Frozen Whetstone (heroic tier)
Horned Helm (heroic tier) x1
Griffon
Bracers of Mighty Striking (paragon tier) x1
Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (heroic tier)
Lancing Gloves x1
Vanguard Rapier +3 x1
Leather Armor x1
====== End ======

and here is my attack breack down Spoiler: Show

charge melee basic attack +24 to attack roll
6 from dex mod
6 from half level
3 from proficiency
3 from enhancement
2 from light blade expertise
1 from waepon talent
2 from combat advantage
1 from charge
1 from nimble blade
1 from warforged tactics 

damage is a bit confusing. first attack the charge
6 from strengh
3 from enhancement
3 from weapon finesse
4 from bracers of mighty striking
4 from acrobats trick
2 from frozen whetstone
5 from lasting frost
4 from power attack
1 from dragon shard
2 from lancing gloves
2 from light blade expertise
1d8 of weapon damage
1d8 from surprising charge
3d8 from sneak attack and back stabber feat
1d8 from vanguard weapon
1d6 from horned helm
1d6 from warforged juggernaut
now my mounts attacks one thing I am doing is assuming that my mount is bloodied
clawx2
attack roll 14+2 from combat advantage 
2d6+10 an a extra 2 from owlbear making a total of 12

if I did my math right I should end up with 98.125 dpr (that includes critical damage) or .81 kpr.
I now this build is very cheesy but I hop I didn't get to much wrong.

Weapon Finesse says hi !

Halfling Calvalry (Fey, Mnt, LFR)
Spoiler: Show

Mounted Charge in Battle Wrath stance, +21 vs. Ref 22 for 3d10+30 (avg 46.5)
DPR=(.9 *46.5)+(.05*70.5)=45.375
KPR=45.375/112=.405

And that is just MBA without the power strikes (which admittedly won't add terribly much). I like the Unbroken Lance to add prone to every charge, but that can be traded for Vanguard/Thundergod/Frost Package weapons and can add on horned helm for more charge damage. Defenses can be boosted with Small Warrior's Defense, and pretty much all the damage feats have been taken, so future feats are free for utility. Mount has good speed and negates CA on you, and can climb. And of course, to enable at-will charging without OA's has Rune of Astral Winds to slide the mount (and therefore yourself) away from a target to be able to re-charge. The PP could easily be swapped for Kensai at higher levels to boost DPR, but I think Master of the Forge rounds out the build better, with the U12 letting us use our minor to pump the mount's AC at-will. Items are selected based on current LFR rules.

If just looking to boost the damage (and still basically be a halfling mounted knight), blackguard|executioner will be a fair boost. Go CHA so you get to double up on your mod (instead of splitting STR/DEX) and get a free d8.

Jun 11, 2012 -- 10:54PM, onecrazymojo wrote:

If just looking to boost the damage (and still basically be a halfling mounted knight), blackguard|executioner will be a fair boost. Go CHA so you get to double up on your mod (instead of splitting STR/DEX) and get a free d8.

Damage-wise that would be a bit better, but then you either sacrifice fighter MC and surprising charge or runepriest MC and Rune of Astral Winds for repeatable charging.

Mm, good point. Hrm. In that case, damage will likely be about the same for the two, or slightly to the slayer's advantage, then (assuming the runepriest mc). The only real advantage the for the blackutioner would be innate radiant access, which might put it ahead with more gear.

Well surprising charge is only 1d10 in this case and in paragon executioner adds 2d8. There would still be the loss of the baked in power bonus, but that could be countered by radiant gear. I'll work up a blackutioner/mc runepriest for comparison...

Ye, that was what I was thinking. The d10+slayer mods would be about or slightly higher than 2d8. But if able to leverage anything out of the radiant, then I think that would be ahead. Hrm, too bad Wis isn't a primary for a cheap Pelor's Boon boost.

Spoiler: Show

Here's what I came up with for that. You end up with the same +18 vs. Reflex but for 2d10+2d8+31 with virtuous strike at 11th. Plus you get the option of real encounters and dailies. So probably better off in the long run. Same number of surges but 10 less HP, but better overall defenses. Less mobility using the owlbear instead of the fey panther plus give up CA immunity. Might be a better PP for it but Master of the Forge still provides well rounded bonuses.

No Badge of the berserker?

Jun 17, 2012 -- 2:40PM, Failedlegend wrote:

No Badge of the berserker?

No point on a mounted charger.  The mount still provokes, and when the mount provokes a: the provokee can choose to take the OA against either mount or rider, and arguably that overrides the Badge, but more importantly b: when the mount provokes, the mount dies and you lose a big chunk of your damage.

Jun 17, 2012 -- 3:02PM, thespaceinvader wrote:

Jun 17, 2012 -- 2:40PM, Failedlegend wrote:

No Badge of the berserker?

No point on a mounted charger.  The mount still provokes, and when the mount provokes a: the provokee can choose to take the OA against either mount or rider, and arguably that overrides the Badge, but more importantly b: when the mount provokes, the mount dies and you lose a big chunk of your damage.

Badge of the Berserker  x 2 tape one to your horse :P

Mounts can't wear neck items...

Added Thor at level 12 in the google docs.  Will update this thread's listing later.
Re: Jay_Ibero_911, please calculate a KPR on whatever verision you would like submitted.  If you want both submitted just give the word and KPRs for both.

If I've missed anyone please pipe up.

You can add the slayer version already. The blackguard executioner hybrid would end up a little more powerful in the end but is more than I feel like fleshing out right now.

Added Halfling Calvalry
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...

Could you please add mine as well thanks.

Hmmm...the halfling charger is intresting...why not a Pixie Chaladin?

Streak of light makes for practically infinite CA...I find the easiest way to constantly charge is to actually jump between 2 targets but the Tiny Size + either BotB or Flitting Harrier makes getting enough room for a charge a little easier since you can occupy the same space allowing for charges from 1 space instead of 2.

Some great feats I found were Power of the Sun, Suprising Charge (Take Battle awareness MC Feat), Wary Fighter, Mark of Handling, Holy Steed, Spear Push, Impaling Spear, Improved/Superior Initiative.

I'd say the key items are Vanguard Lance, BoTB and Horned Helm but there's a bunch of other fun ones to add a little bit here and there.

Paragon Path wise Morninglord isn't bad but I'm sure there's better...if you can convince your DM to let you take Juggernaut (WF Racial PrE) you'll be laughing

Here's a variant of LDB's Lone Wolf build using Eternal Defender to wield a pair of Frost Gouges. It uses Polearm Momentum with Ring of Ramming to push 2 squares and knock the enemy prone on hit, triggering Draconic Arrogance twice. Long Step allows you to follow your prey.

Spoiler: Show

Assuming enemy is quarried, no creatures other than the quarry are adjacent, and enemy was hit at least once on the previous turn. Battlefury stance should be active.

DPR Calculations:
Attack = 15 [level] + 10 [Str] + 6 [enh] + 3 [feat] + 2 [prof] + 1 [prime shot] +1 [prime quarry] + 2 [focused hunter] + 2 [CA] =  42 (95% accuracy)

Damage bonuses:
damage = 6 [enh] + 6 [IAoP] + 5 [lasting frost] + 5 [dragonshard] + 4 [gloves of ice] + 4 [icy heart] + 5 [called shot] + 20 [draconic arrogance] + 6 [battle fury stance] +5 [headsman's chop] (if first attack hits) + 8 [rending tempest] (if first attack hits)

Twin Strike = 0.9*2*(16 + 61) + 0.95*(0.9*(8 + 5)+0.05*(12+5)) + 0.05*2*(24 + 61 + 12 + 6*3.5) + (1-0.05^2)*3*3.5
= 172.7962 DPR=0.6545 KPR

Edit: forgot to add quarry damage

This is probably run of the mill, but thought I'd post it since I didn't see any paragon scouts. I also thought it was humorous to do it with a razorclaw, the purple race in the scout handbook. And it's LFR legal to boot (no duplicate items, no reliance on whetstones, no Mark of X feats)

A few fairly typical assumptions, shifting with blood fury weapon, CA with feybeast, charge. And I don't particularly like to assume first attack benefits from lasting frost, but most other builds were doing it, and for the sake of fair comparison, I made the assumption.

Level 16
0.62 Mean KPR Razorclaw Scout Shocktrooper , Mengu74 (Ch Fey Frst)

The Build (only relevant bits):
Spoiler: Show

Calculations:
Spoiler: Show

Here's a quick sketch of a level 1 abusing the independent action rules for companions.  It's not very optimized.  

Basically, you have to be 20-25 squares away Twin Striking with your Greatbow while your animal companions flip out for not having someone close enough to command them.  Fey Beasts don't seem to have an independent action clause, so the owlbear just hangs out for +2 damage.

If you assume you can hang out at exactly 20 squares to the enemy, but 21 to both companions (why not, it's CharOp!,)  switch the proficiency to something for +2 damage another 1.3 DPR(.93KPR)

Human Ranger (Beastmaster)|Sentinel
Theme: Fey Beast Companion (Owlbear)
Feats: Hybrid talent (Beastmastery), Greatbow proficiency
13 Con, 18 Dex, 16 Wis

Sentinel Wolf (w/CA and +2 from owlbear) = +8/1d8+6 = .65*10.5+.05*14 = 6.825 + .7 = 7.525 DPR
Beastmastery Wolf (w/CA and +2 from owlbear) = +6/1d8+4 = .55*8.5+.05*12 =  5.275
Twin Strike w/CA and +2 = (+8/1d12+2)(*2)  = 2*(.65*8.5+14*.05)=2*(6.225)= 12.45
Quarry = (1-(1-.6)*(1-.7)*(1-.7))*3.5 = 3.374
=28.6 DPR/.89KPR

Post below this corrects me on Distant Vengeance with Hybrid OoE, so this build is invalid.


Wanted to try my hand at a ranged crit-fishing Avenger/Warlock. This build does not rely on frostcheese or radiant vulnerability - but it does rely on a radiant holy symbol. It also doesn't rely on having combat advantage; obvious that would make the DPR go up a bit more. Holy Gauntlets and Ring of the Radiant Storm are featured, but neither accounted for in this math (I don't know how to account for the ring). They'll only make it go up. It also does not provoke OA's, provides good bonuses to saving throws against ongoing damage, and has decent defenses.

I know there are better builds, but here's a ranged crit-fishing version. Student of Caiphon gives crit range 18-20 on radiant warlock powers, combined with Avenger's Oath and Distance Vengeance means nearly a 28% chance to crit on Eldritch Blast, consistently. The biggest drawback is not a multiattack. Half-Elf Twin Strike Avenger still has to stay melee and doesn't get 18-20 crit range, and is still a pure Avenger so power options are limited. Essentially, this is a crit-fishing warlock, barely any Avenger besides the Oath features.

With Eldritch Blast, I've got a 93.75% chance to hit Ref 28, and a 27.75% chance to crit. White Lotus Riposte to affect enemy back, and White Lotus Master Riposte with same chance to hit/crit means my DPR is about 81.73. Various items/powers to increase crit damage; though those fluctuate. 6d10 on a crit can be as good as 60...or as bad as 6. 

Lemme know if I messed up the math someplace. Also, this was for something else (not built to "top the list"), so I don't know if the item cost adds up to the specification. I think it should.


Hit: 1d10+2d8+15 = 10.5+15 = 25.5
+22 to hit Ref 28, Oath rolled (+7 con +8 level +3 enh +2 vers +2 goggles)
1d10+15 (+7 con +3 enh +2 imp focus +3 painful oath)
2d8 (curse)
Crit: 6d10 = 33 avg
Implement: 3d10
Wrathful Implement: 2d10
War Ring: 1d10


((1-(.25)^2)-.2775)*(10.5+15)+(.2775)*(41+33)+7+((1-(.25)^2)-.2775)*(10.5+15)+(.2775)*(41+33) = 81.73
((1-(.15)^2)-.2775)*(10.5+15)+(.2775)*(41+33)+7+((1-(.15)^2)-.2775)*(10.5+15)+(.2775)*(41+33) = 83.77 with CA

CB Show

Hybrid OoE only applies to Avenger powers, so DV only applies to Avenger RBAs if you are a hybrid. Though you could achieve the same thing as a pure class Half-Elf Avenger.

Distant Vengeance specifically says "All ranged basic attacks."

Aug 22, 2012 -- 11:21AM, JQuacker wrote:

Distant Vengeance specifically says "All ranged basic attacks."

Uh-huh, it also says you gain OoE on all RBAs. So, you do. You gian hybrid OoE, because that is what you have. Hybrid OoE only applies to Avenger powers.

Only reading part of a feat is generally a good way to get what it does wrong. 

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks for clearing it up. My mistake was in that a hybrid Avenger doesn't get OoE on basic attacks.

Aug 22, 2012 -- 11:21AM, JQuacker wrote:

Distant Vengeance specifically says "All ranged basic attacks."

There's a specific cheeze tag for that.

Though i agree with alcestis.

Hello I have a new version of my old build (last one had a lot of holes in it). 
Here are the things this build assumes that it's fay beast companion is always adjacent to the target, lasting frost applies to first hit and that it can charge each turn so here is the build i call him zeus (yes someone did just make a thor).
Spoiler: Show
So here is the attack break down
Spoiler: Show

Final calculations melee basic attack 44.025 + dual weapon attack 38.54 + griffons two claw attacks 17.6 = 100.165 DPR or .83 KPR
hope your still with me and if you see any problems with this build just let me now thanks.

I've made a level 12 Sorcerer with 1.4 mean KPR.

Maybe you'll believe me now that your chart severely overrates multi-target damage?

Hey all,

I'm playing the following character, but am unsure how to calculate his KPR.  Any help would be massively appreciated.  I'm not sure how to handle the choice on whether to use his at-will single-target attack, or at-will area-burst 1 attack and how/if that would effect his KPR.

Malakai Show

My inclination would be to use my two uses of Elemental Escalation on his AoE attack... but based on how I've seen AoE's treated here, not sure if it would be better to use it with his Single Target power for calculating KPR. 

I hereby summon myself from the dead!

Looks like I'll be using KPR for D&D next: community.wizards.com/dndnext/blog/2012/...

Over christmas break I'll finally have time to update this thread.  I'm excited to read up on what's come out since my long hiatus.

And I was able to finally edit my first post in the DPR 2.0 thread, so now lurkers know to come to this thread.  WAHOO!!!

Oct 23, 2012 -- 1:31PM, kalidrev wrote:

Hey all,

I'm playing the following character, but am unsure how to calculate his KPR.  Any help would be massively appreciated.  I'm not sure how to handle the choice on whether to use his at-will single-target attack, or at-will area-burst 1 attack and how/if that would effect his KPR.

Malakai Show

NOTE: Built with 25 point buy and gained a free "expertise" feat at lvl 5 as part of the PbP he's in.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Malakai, level 5
Tiefling, Sorcerer (Elementalist)
Elemental Specialty Option: Fire Elementalist
Fire in Your Veins (+2 to Arcana)
Theme: Infernal Prince
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 19, DEX 10, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 21
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 16, DEX 10, INT 10, WIS 10, CHA 18
 
 
AC: 17 Fort: 17 Ref: 13 Will: 20
HP: 51 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 12
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +9, Bluff +16, Endurance +11, Intimidate +12
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +2, Athletics +1, Diplomacy +9, Dungeoneering +2, Heal +2, History +2, Insight +2, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion +2, Stealth +4, Streetwise +7, Thievery +2
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Infernal Prince Attack: Hellfire Heart
Sorcerer Attack: Elemental Bolt
Sorcerer Attack: Ignition
Sorcerer Attack: Elemental Escalation (Fire)
Feat Utility: Diabolic Transformation
Sorcerer Utility 2: Shield of Flames
 
FEATS
Level 1: Hellfire Blood
Level 2: Superior Implement Training (Incendiary dagger)
Level 4: Diabolic Soul
Level 5: War Wizard's Expertise
 
ITEMS
Amulet of Protection +1 x1
Chromatic Robe Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +1 x1
Khyber Shard of the Fiery Depth (heroic tier)
Crimson Determination (heroic tier)
Flame Bracers (heroic tier)
Challenge-Seeking Incendiary dagger +2 x1
====== End ======

My inclination would be to use my two uses of Elemental Escalation on his AoE attack... but based on how I've seen AoE's treated here, not sure if it would be better to use it with his Single Target power for calculating KPR. 

Free feats aren't allowed on this compendium. But most builds stat themselves out at level 6, so that gives you an extra +1 to hit, a feat, and a utility that often doesn't matter
Feel free to calculate the single target KPR, and the per target KPR of your area attack seperatly.  I've listed both values as seperate entries for the same build.   
I put a "(3x3)" next to your KPR value so lurkers can easily spot the fact that all creatures in the area attack suffer this KPR.   

Thread updated.  I've collected the last 3 builds here from the DPR Kings 2.0 thread.  If you want to comment on them replying there may be the best way to get their attention.

Regarding the Loud Pixie from Erchima, and his complaint about the area attack conversion to single target KPR; I must say his build is absolutly amazing.  Having a friendly at-will 7x7 area attack is superb.  I love the fact that he statted out his attack sequence.  Having 1.8 KPR on round 2 just blows me away.  He says that we overrate area attack.  I did this intentionally.  I want more area attack builds here.  We simply don't have enough.  This thread makes a significant contribution to optimized builds in real play.  I feel the area attack region is mostly unexplored, partly due to the idea that it doesn't conform to the DPR expectations we are used to.  

I'd put his build in another entry where I quote just the per target KPR with the "(7x7)" modifier but I didn't see that he calculated that explicitly.

.83 KPR Thyrn(12), by Odyssyus(Ch, Fr, Mnt, Fey)

.4 KPR Halfling Calvalry(11), by Jay_Ibero_911 (Fey, Mnt, LFR)

0.655 KPR Lone Wolf(dual Gouge)(30), by Black_Knight999(Fr, Solo)

0.62 KPR Razorclaw Scout Shocktrooper(16) , Mengu74 (Ch Fey Frst)

.89 KPR(very unorhodox) Human Ranger (Beastmaster)|Sentinel(1), by SpikedMarkovChain(Fey)

1.4 KPR Loud Pixie(12), by erachima()

70.45 DPR Frostbow of Sehanine(24), by RtrnofdMax(Fr)

34.53 DPR Pixie Thief(6), by RX-75()

52.03 DPR Fighter|Ranger(6), by RX-75(Mnt)

I don't want to scare you, but I'd like to emphasize one reason I made the google doc is so that others could take up the cause in my stead.  On the HTML tab, I've prepared the cells to generate the sblocks needed for posting.  I'd like that this google doc be the de-facto source for builds.

My Blackquard|Exe\Rog:

Spoiler: Show

Math Time?
Spoiler: Show

So, I'm somewhat noob on this whole dpr kings and I'm quite the archery fan (bows, not x-bows). Said that, I see that LDB's Shoot to Thrill is always below the "fair striker" rating, according to Borg's signature.

So, besides the frostbow of sehanine, do we have any other bow-using examples of archery kicking ass? Is it possible to make the Shoot to Thrill a better dpr-er ? Thanks and forgive me if I said something stupid, still trying to learn =)

Jan 4, 2013 -- 8:47PM, Yuukale_Narmo wrote:

So, I'm somewhat noob on this whole dpr kings and I'm quite the archery fan (bows, not x-bows). Said that, I see that LDB's Shoot to Thrill is always below the "fair striker" rating, according to Borg's signature.

So, besides the frostbow of sehanine, do we have any other bow-using examples of archery kicking ass? Is it possible to make the Shoot to Thrill a better dpr-er ? Thanks and forgive me if I said something stupid, still trying to learn =)

There is Arrow... Though it's a pretty lame build if you're trying to play it, needs like 4 minor actions and half a standard action before achieving it's proclaimed DPR. DPR Kings is more of a hypothetical exercise than anything else.

Why do you think Shoot to Thrill is below fair striker? I think it is still a pretty solid build. I'd update a few feats and change the order a bit, grab a better theme, but I don't see anything wrong with its general concepts. 

Arrow? I don't think I've seen it around.

Hmmm... nevermind, I think my mistake was in the math. Was adding before multiplying and then, of course the division would be unfair to the KPR

at level 30 Shoot to Thrill is at 113 according to LDB. 113/264 = 0.4 = Fair Striker rating on Borg's sig.

Even though I wonder if this number can be raised (I mean, dpr-wise, not taking nova into account).
Btw, how do you guys handle novas, considering that they aren't consistent (turn-after-turn) damage. ? Do they matter on the kpr competition?

(ps: thanks once more Mengu, for answering me =D )

Jan 4, 2013 -- 11:31PM, Yuukale_Narmo wrote:

Arrow? I don't think I've seen it around.

It's got a couple entries in this thread at level 12 and 16, not a very good build, just a high at-will DPR build when it's got all its bells and whistles. Really, mostly just an exercise and not a very meaningful one.

Jan 4, 2013 -- 11:31PM, Yuukale_Narmo wrote:

Even though I wonder if this number can be raised (I mean, dpr-wise, not taking nova into account).
Btw, how do you guys handle novas, considering that they aren't consistent (turn-after-turn) damage. ? Do they matter on the kpr competition?

For the purposes of this thread, unless you have a good way of calculating KP2R, KP5R, and so on, you don't handle novas. There are just too many variables. You can always assume the most favorable conditions and draw up high numbers, but there isn't much point to it.

A lot of good striker builds get their damage up through use of encounter and daily powers. At-will DPR has diminishing returns on investment. For instance when spending a feat, weapon focus may increase at-will DPR, but that same feat spent on Battle Awareness, or a power swap for a multi-attack or free action attack, can be more worthwhile, removing enemies off the board faster. Similarly, for this thread, hybriding executioner to get an extra die or two of damage increases at-will DPR, but hybriding fighter to get a triple tap and a free action attack will likely make a better striker.

I wouldn't worry too much about increasing at-will DPR, and just see what your 2-3 round attack plan looks like with a build. You can usually surpass at-will DPR times 3, in your 3 round attack plan if you build toward that, rather than trying to make a high at-will DPR build.

If you're just trying to submit something to this thread for the sake of the exercise, just study the existing submissions, and see the tricks and assumptions they use.

Submitting Stefan, an Avenger/PMC Ranger variant with 1.06 KPR at level 12.

Same build, level 16, 1.15 KPR.

Umm, what is KPR? I mean I know it stands for Kills per Round but how do you calculate it?

it's in the 2.0 thread, and probably other places:


Kills Per Round (KPR), is a version of your DPR that we use to compensate for your level, so we can compare builds regardless of level.
To convert your DPR into KPR simply divide the DPR by 8*level+24 (the growth rate of the average monster per level).

KPR = DPR/(8*Level + 24) 

Jan 24, 2013 -- 8:59PM, Genjin wrote:

Umm, what is KPR? I mean I know it stands for Kills per Round but how do you calculate it?

They use some weird average. The formula ends up being, iirc,

Total damage in round 1-2/(8*Level + 24) = KP2R
Total damage in round 1-5/(8*Level + 24) = KP5R
Total damage in round 1-510/(8*Level + 24) = KP10R

Mean KPR = (KP2R/2 + KP5R/5 + KP10R/10)/3

Mean KPR is basically meaningless, but it's your "high score", so... enjoy? If you're actually going to get any value out of the charts, you need to go to the document, look at the first two numbers (2 and 5) and then take a hard look at the builds themselves to figure out to what extent the numbers actually work. The 10 is usually pointless because any build that has it very high is using some sort of trick that you probably can't in a real game.

For level 1, I present Rolf, Twin-Striking Human Scout.

Race: Human
Human racial power: Bonus at-will (twin strike)
Stats: Dexterity 20, Don't Care, Don't Care...
Class: Ranger (Scout)
Two-Weapon Style: Whirling Axe Mastery
Aspects of the Wild: Lurking Spider, Don't Care
Theme: Unseelie Agent (shadow-wrought longbow)
Human feat: Cunning Stalker
Feat 1: Bow Expertise

Relevant Equipment: Shadow-Wrought Longbow +1, Mundane Gauntlet Axe
Relevant Rules-lawyering: Since twin strike is one or two creatures, two attacks we pick two creatures and attack them both twice. Also, the "off-hand" gauntlet axe qualifies us for the whirling axe mastery bonus damage.
Cheese tags: Twin Strike, Solo, OH GOD WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

Turn sequence: Standard action Twin Strike two isolated targets within 20, Don't Care, Don't Care, end turn, repeat.

Attack bonus: +5 DEX, +2 prof, +2 CA, +1 enhancement, +1 feat = +11 vs. AC = level+10 = 80% hit, 5% crit
Damage bonus: 1d10, +2 Axe Mastery, +2 power, +1 enhancement, +1 bow expertise (+1d8 crit die) = 11.5 hit, 20.5 crit

Mathing it up: Mean KPR 1.26 Show

I get the way you're parcing Twin Strike by RAW, just curious how it'd need to be written/formatted to get the obvious RAI (two attacks against 1 target or two attacks split between 2 targets).

"Target: Two creatures, or one creature twice" and then removing the two attacks wording from the attack line would do it.

Target: One or two creatures.
Special: If you only targetted one creature with this power, make the secondary attack against that target.

Secondary Attack:

Target: The creature that you just attacked:
Hit: 1[W] 

Target: One creature
...............
Effect: Repeat the attack against the same creature or a different creature.

Gives you infinite attacks.

Just a note, The character does not meet the requirements for Nimble Blade.

Feb 16, 2013 -- 7:07AM, Fardiz wrote:

Gives you infinite attacks.

There is nothing to indicate that the effect line would be repeated.

Feb 16, 2013 -- 10:29PM, Jerico_Mason wrote:

Just a note, The character does not meet the requirements for Nimble Blade.

Quote who you're replying to, we can't tell.

Jan 28, 2012 -- 11:47PM, Illeist wrote:

Jan 27, 2012 -- 1:33PM, borg285 wrote:

How about this for AoE and Monks:  If you hit multiple targets you can take fractional KPR for your primary target, but all secondary targets you can only count them if you've killed them, all excess damage to secondary targets go to the next set of secondary targets

If you were using encounter powers you are already doing a round by round breakdown
If you are doing simple at-will calculations you have to seperate it into primary KPR (fractional) and secondary KPNR = n attacks * floor(KPNR)

I can't say that I entirely approve of that idea, but I understand why it's necessary. It's unfortunate that, at this point, one of the best things I could do for KPR over five rounds is actually lower DPR (by lowering Flurry damage) and increase the single target DPR. As it is, I'm wasting almost an entire KP5R in Flurry overflow.
And without further ado, the build! Also, I totally forgot that this build is no longer a Revenant. That makes 50% of its title obsolete... How about "Flurry of Cheese"?
Build Show

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
level 12
Half-Elf, Monk, Unseen Hand
Monastic Tradition Option: Stone Fist
Half-Elf Power Selection Option: Dilettante
Associate: Trained Young Owlbear
Theme: Fey Beast Tamer
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 18, CON 16, DEX 11, INT 11, WIS 22, CHA 9
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 15, CON 13, DEX 10, INT 10, WIS 17, CHA 8
 
 
AC: 18 Fort: 21 Ref: 17 Will: 25
HP: 83 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 20
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Heal +17, Insight +19, Perception +17, Stealth +11
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +6, Athletics +10, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +7, Dungeoneering +12, Endurance +9, History +6, Intimidate +5, Nature +12, Religion +6, Streetwise +5, Thievery +6
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Monk Feature: Stone Fist Flurry of Blows
Ranger Attack 1: Twin Strike
Unseen Hand Attack 11: Unseen Hunter's Pounce
Unseen Hand Utility 12: Unseen Scrutiny
 
FEATS
Level 1: Ki Focus Expertise
Level 2: Disciple of Destruction (Retrained to Lasting Frost at 11)
Level 4: Implement Focus (Ki Focus)
Level 6: Light Blade Expertise
Level 8: Adept Dilettante
Level 10: Nimble Blade
Level 11: Versatile Master
Level 12: Starblade Flurry
 
ITEMS
Monk unarmed strike
Blurred Strike Ki Focus +3 x1
Ki Dagger +1 x1
Ki Hand crossbow +1 x1
Hand Crossbow x3
Battle Harness Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +2 x1
Jade Sea Snake x1
Lancing Gloves x1
Iron Armbands x1
Siberys Shard of Merciless Cold (level 12) x1 (attached to Ki Dagger)
====== End ======

The Schtick Show

Twin Strike:
+23 to hit
  +6 Level
  +6 Wis (Adept Dilettante)
  +3 Proficiency (Dagger)
  +3 Enhancement (Ki Focus)
  +2 Expertise
  +2 CA (Owlbear)
  +1 (Nimble Blade)

+25.5 damage
  +2.5 (Dagger)
  +3 (Enhancement)
  +2 (Focus)
  +5 (Lasting Frost)
  +2 (Lancing Gloves)
  +2 (Light Blade Expertise)
  +2 (Owlbear)
  +2 (Bracers)
  +3 (Dragonshard)
  +2 (Whetstone)

+64 Damage (First Flurry)
  +13 on target of attack
    +7 (Base Flurry)
    +2 (Ki Dagger)
    +2 (Ki Hand Crossbow)
    +2 (Lancing Gloves)
  +17 on adjacent enemy
    +7 (Base Flurry)
    +2 (Ki Dagger)
    +2 (Ki Hand Crossbow)
    +2 (Lancing Gloves)
    +4 (Not targeted by triggering attack)
  +17 on enemy within 5 (Starblade Flurry)
  +17 on enemy within 10 (Unseen Hand)

+48 Damage (Second Flurry)

+13.5 damage (Jade Sea Snake: Free action attack)
 +13 to hit
    +11.5 (Bite)
    +2 (Owlbear)

First attack DPR: .9(25.5) = 22.95
Second attack DPR: .9(23.5) = 22.95
First Flurry: (1-(.1*.1))*64 = 63.36
Second Flurry: (1-(.1+.1))*48 = 38.4
Crit DPR: (15*.05)*2 = 1.5
Sea Snake: (13.5*.45 + 4.5*.05) = 6.3

Total DPR: 165.06

Damage per Target:
  First target: 73.77
  (45.9+12.87+7.2+1.5+6.3)
  Second, Third, and Fourth Targets: 30.43
  (16.83+13.6)

Total KP5R: 6.0738

KP5R per Target:
  First Target: 3.0738
   ((73.77*5)/120)
  Second, Third, and Fourth Targets: 1.2679
   ((30.43*5)/120)

This one second on the list at 12th level tier. Half-Elf Monk/Unseen Hand.  Dex is not high enough modified for Nimble Blade.

Feb 16, 2013 -- 10:58PM, Zathris wrote:

Feb 16, 2013 -- 7:07AM, Fardiz wrote:

Gives you infinite attacks.

There is nothing to indicate that the effect line would be repeated.

If you repeat "The Attack" against the target, the effect line would always follow up the Attack Line, etc etc.

Wrong sense of attack, doesn't work that way. But yeah, the overloading of attack there is its own problem.

Feb 17, 2013 -- 12:00AM, Jerico_Mason wrote:

This one second on the list at 12th level tier. Half-Elf Monk/Unseen Hand.  Dex is not high enough modified for Nimble Blade.

One of many, MANY issues with that build...